Originally Posted by LawDude

I know every poker book has one of these charts in it, but I would make the contrarian suggestion that this is of only limited value.

The most important factors in what hands you play pre-flop is the behavior of the players who are acting before you (and what that behavior tells you about their ranges), the expected behavior of the players who are acting after you, and the stack sizes of each of these players.

And bear in mind, it isn't whether the "table" is "tight" or "loose" in most instances; rather, it is the specific betting patterns of the people betting before you and the people betting after you. A loose player to your right is a lot different animal than a loose player to your left.

When you have made your estimation of what the betting to your right has told you about those players' hands and what you expect to happen to your left if you raise, call, or fold, then look at your cards and determine the best play for that hand. In that last step, of course, preflop hand charts are fine to consult but your decision should be informed by what you have actually seen at the table.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

If we're mostly playing 77 for set value/c-bet why not throw in 22-66? I'm curious because I generally raise 22+.

Originally Posted by iopq

we're playing to steal blinds / cbet and hopefully get a fold
and sometimes we're going to be good with a hand like 77 on the river if we check through on the turn/river
not as much with 22

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

The table dynamics of a given session can also drastically change back and forth between agg/passive and loose/tight. So it's probably just as wrong to *generally always play 22-55 UTG as it is to *generally always fold them. IMO if you feel you're just going to get outplayed postlfop then fold'em, but if that's the case there is certainly a better table out there to choose from. I'm not sure how profitable playing these hands in a higher stakes game would be, but because microstakes tables are usually either weak-tight or loose/passive, you'll either get lots of callers when you raise thus giving you great pot odds, or you'll get 1 or 2 callers who will fold to your c-bet 90% of the time, and won't let go of an overpair when you do happen to make your set.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

If the game is the least bit aggressive I don't see checking down to the river once someone calls your raise very common.

Originally Posted by dev

The game isn't always so agro.

The 22-55 thing is an ongoing battle. Some players want to play all pairs from all positions, some throw out 22-55 UTG and UTG+1, some even in MP. Personally I play all of them, but I think it's splitting hairs.

Originally Posted by dev

I don't think this is a useful thought process...

Of course game dynamics change, of course generalities suck, but it's not useful to think about it that way. Any given situation is unique, etc.

Higher stakes games have some players that are putting you on a fairly accurate range, at least preflop, so adding 22-55 to your UTG raising range makes more sense for value and for balance. That said, at really loose passive games, limping is fine. If you think you can get someone's stack in without raising preflop, then you can probably limp these more profitably than you can raise them. I've always tried to key my game towards moving up, so I've been raising them UTG since I played $5nl.

Originally Posted by dev

There's no right answer. It's a trap. Please don't beat this to death anymore.

Originally Posted by iopq

Happens at least some of the time in NL50, if you play higher maybe it doesn't happen

Originally Posted by LawDude

If I can beat it to death, you have three possible courses of action with 22-55 in early position. You can raise it, call it, or fold it.

Now, consider 3 tables:

1. 3 betting pre-flop is common, and the two players to your immediate left each re-raise 30 percent of the time when faced with a pre-flop raise. Further, the aggression continues post-flop-- they bet such a wide variety of flops that until the turn or even the river, it is always very difficult to pin them down to a usefully narrow range.

2. The table is passive. You can raise a pot pre-flop and you will tend to get the same number of callers as who would limp if you did not raise. Further, the two players to your immediate left are calling stations who will call your post-flop bets at least until the river with any made hand or even overcards.

3. The table respects raises. Normally, when someone raises pre-flop, that player takes down the pot. In those few instances where a pre-flop raise was called or re-raised, the caller / re-raiser always turned over a monster pre-flop hand such as pocket queens or higher. The pre-flop raise also affects post-flop play-- players are very cautious to even call the continuation bet of a pre-flop raiser. The two players to your left are especially likely to fold to pre-flop aggression either pre-flop or on the flop in response to a c-bet.

Now, obviously, each of these 3 tables are an exaggeration. But ask yourself, should you be doing the same thing with your small pocket pairs in early position on each of these tables? And if your answer is "no", then you shouldn't be relying on an inflexible rule in playing your preflop hands and instead should be starting with what you expect the response will be when you play a hand pre-flop and then figure out how you will play hands pre-flop in the specific situation you are in at that table.

Originally Posted by LawDude

1. 3 betting pre-flop is common, and the two players to your immediate left each re-raise 30 percent of the time when faced with a pre-flop raise. Further, the aggression continues post-flop-- they bet such a wide variety of flops that until the turn or even the river, it is always very difficult to pin them down to a usefully narrow range.

Originally Posted by iopq

|----not common----|-----some of the time----|------common----|

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Something that isn't common happens some of the time. If you'd like to argue more feel free to do so just so you can get the last word in.

But honestly, it's as bad as you claiming you never limp UTG when your V$IP and PFR don't match.