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pdk1010
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09-08-2010, 12:14 AM
Post subject: value of tptk in relation to pot size
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 71
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im sure this is posted somewhere else a million times on these forums but I was thinking about hand "values" today, specifically tptk and to a lesser extent overpairs, and how they relate to pot size.
this is prolly ldo to most people but it was a light bulb going off for me on how i play these hands.
the basic premise of my conclusion is:
The value of Tptk is inverse to Pot size i.e. pot size goes up -> tptk value goes down
i include overpairs here but this is true to a lesser extent because of the addition of lesser overpairs in villains range.
this seems like its common sense/really obvious(and can easily shown by putting our opponents on range and stoving it) but the way i play tptk is effected greatly as my goal is to get to showdown with mediumish size pots where before i played tptk like full throttle bet bet bet....then bet bet bet
flame away......
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<yaawn> "dude you need to give up childish shit like your job, any hobbies, your girlfriend, then u'll get good"
"I hear u screamin girl but my name aint haaarder"
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Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,448
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less spr more handreading
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbickes
less spr more handreading
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This. Ranges etc >>>>>>>>> pot size/stack size
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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Illfavor
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Denton, TX
Posts: 1,152
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Oh, so you mean we should play our range in a way most +EV vs. their range like always?
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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yea its soooo villain dependent (and board texture dependent), sometimes your happy to stack off with top pair no kicker, sometimes i will fold it on the flop
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NightGizmo
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Flush
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 268
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I don't think you can give absolute value to many hands in a vacuum. TPTK is playable for stacks against a maniac fish, but is probably worthless against a super-weak-tight villain that suddenly starts firing bets/raises. Which is just a more complicated way of saying "less spr more handreading", I suppose.
Also, your theorem falls apart when considered in the light of actual SPR tactics. When you hit TPTK on the flop, you want the pot to be as big as possible before any flop betting begins.
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pdk1010
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 71
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1.lol @ gizmo calling this a theorem
2.agreed w/everything u guys said and i think i just didnt explain what i meant
i didnt mean for thinking about tptk in relation to pot size to replace hand reading/ranges, etc. I think of this more as an early warning system that helps remind me that something isnt kosher with the way a hand is playing out.
i should have mentioned before that overplaying tptk is/hopefully was a leak of mine that cost me alot of money because of the mentality "this fuckin micro-moron will call me down with a2-aq/middle pair/oesd/gssd/fd's, etc, etc 3 streets and i can value town his ass all the way to the bank" which inevitably led to me using skewed ranges for my opponents and therefore costing me money
anyway i meant for my little inverse relationship to assist me with hand reading/ranging as well because it is like an alarm bell that signals that either 1. my current range is off or 2. the hands that i am currently attempting to extract value from may make up less of villains ranges then i would like.
again like i said im not a doctor, def not a theorem of any sorts, but helps me to keep pdk from spewing off chips as a pot grows.
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<yaawn> "dude you need to give up childish shit like your job, any hobbies, your girlfriend, then u'll get good"
"I hear u screamin girl but my name aint haaarder"
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NightGizmo
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Flush
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk1010
1.lol @ gizmo calling this a theorem
2.agreed w/everything u guys said and i think i just didnt explain what i meant
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Ha! Glad I could entertain you.
I get your concept, though. I get nervous on the river, too, when a reasonably solid player calls the first 2 streets and I have TPTK. I start to worry that I've either overestimated the player and they are a station (the optimistic view), or I've overestimated my hand's strength and I'm value-towning myself (probably the more realistic view).
But if I've already seen the player show down with garbage in the face of aggression? I'm going for 3 streets of value every time.
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