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bbqsquirrel
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11-15-2006, 11:03 PM
Post subject: Value-betting vs. loose passive players...or so I thought...
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 260
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I run into this problem every now and then. I had a decent hand, I thought I was making value bets throughout all streets and my opponent, who was loose passive and who I didn't respect much, called me all the way and flipped over a better hand or yet a monster?
Here's one example:
On a loose 10/25 table, villain, who I classified as a calling station who played trash hands, sat on my left. I limped with KJs in middle position, 5 limpers in total, flop KT4 rainbow, and I led out 3xBB, and reraised a solid LP player 6x to 12x in hopes of isolating. Villain called twice, LP folded. I don't put villain on much of a hand, maybe a weaker King or a Ten or a medium PP. Pot is now 35x. Turn a rag, I bet like 20x, villain called. River another rag, I put villain all-in with his remaining 25x or so. He called and showed TT for a set.
Another example. This was real life and just play money, but I took the game equally seriously. 4-handed, I completed SB with A3. Flop 33T. Great. I check-raised BB, who was passive, 4x to 20x. She called, everyone else folded. Turn was a 5. I bet like 30x, she called. River a 2, no flush. I pushed all-in with my remaining 40x, she called and showed TT for the flopped house.
Not only do I lose a bunch of chips in both cases, I also felt like a complete donk for hanging myself against such opponents. My ego certainly hurts much more than my wallet.
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sandstorm
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 573
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beware of players who flat call both initial bets and then raises. they want to you bet for you. i'm not sure how the action went in the first hand, but if the TT guy called twice on the flop, it's time to slow down with KJ. it's not a good hand in that spot. can be a problem if you have im pegged as a calling station.
second hand, not much to do i guess. those hands happens and you would have got her money if the situation were the opposite.
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>3
this is my favourite part of the post
it looks like angry boobs
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unclemikect
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: wethersfield ct
Posts: 13
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I'm of the mind that 2 calls frm opp Then he leads the river is a real wake up call...DANGER WILL ROBINSON.....same thing in reverse...you bet out the flop they call with position...bet the turn another call...brick hits the river & watch for the call RAISE YA!!!....mike in ct
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unclemikeinct
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Nova442
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 43
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Ok you seem to have some trouble with this principle of postflop play: Don't go broke in unraised pots without the nuts (or near nuts). You even say yourself in the first part of your post you have a problem when you take marginal hands and build big pots with them. There's a simple answer: don't do it! 
Especially in the first example I'm just sickened by putting so much money in a 5 way unraised pot with just TPGK. How can you possibly be good when a pot of 5bb swells to 150bb? The second example is probably ok because it's play money and your opponent is likely to stack off with a wide variety of hands you beat.
But there's no way you should be felting that KJ hand. That's InSaNe!
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"Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of War."
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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I don't put villain on much of a hand, maybe a weaker King or a Ten or a medium PP.
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What are the chances of a medium PP hitting this board.
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salsa4ever
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,073
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even passive players get hands
Here's a hand I played recently. I'm on the button and villain raises 5BB from UTG+1 with a 52BB stack. I call with QQ because I thought I didn't need to reraise to isolate and didn't want to get shut out by a reraise. The blinds fold.
Flop is uncoordinated 9 high and he bets 4/5 pot. The most outs he can reasonably have is 6 (AK), and just as likely to have 3 (KQ, AQ, AJ) or 2 (a lower pocket pair) or be crushing me (AA, KK, 99). Thus, I flat call to win more from hands I beat and lose less (maybe) from hands that beat me. He bets 4/5 pot on the turn and I flat call. He's only got $20 left now so it doesn't actually matter. I could well just push but I opted to call. He pumps it in on the river and his JJ loses to my QQ.
(In retrospect my play would have failed if a QKA came and he shut down. I would check behind on the turn and make a small value bet on the river)
Aggression is good. Most players err by using too little of it. But sometimes a passive play (check behind, flat call) to underrepresent a hand is equally good. Especially against a bookish TaGG who thinks he's playing well (just because he obeys the "starting hand police" to use Greenstein's term) but is really not.
How do we avoid losing all our money then? With a semi strong hand, you need to control the pot and put yourself in a position where you can make the most from worse hands and lose the least from better hands. Potting 3 streets is not generally the way to achieve this.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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I think those hands are fine with reads, as long as the guy in the first hand is going broke with K2, Tx. If he's not going to call it off with a crap kicker, then there's no need to bet it like you did.
Long story short, if they'll felt any top pair and second pair hand, play 'em like you did. After you do it a few times, you'll be crushing them. If they give up and fold some hands like they should (and like I imagine they do), then stop playing so hard and ease up.
Also, rethink the term "value bet." It's not always as much as you can get called, especially with a TP-type hand.
And, on a side note, I would avoid advice from people who don't pay enough attention:
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Originally Posted by unclemikect
I'm of the mind that 2 calls frm opp Then he leads the river is a real wake up call
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No opps lead any rivers.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
What are the chances of a medium PP hitting this board.
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Depends on the rags, but we'll go with 50/50 or a little better. He also mentioned Kx and Tx, giving us a myriad of hands that we're ahead of. If they felt all said hands, we're way ahead here.
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