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value betting on a scary board

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Checkways

11-23-2005, 05:59 AM Post subject: value betting on a scary board

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 249

Been thinking about this a lot and would like to know what others here think. Typically, I make the big money on the river. By then, I usually have a good feel on whether or not I'm going to win the hand. This is the spot where I try to get the second best hand to pay me off. But there have been times where it's gotten me into bad bad trouble. It's like when a value bet goes wrong. Anyway, here's a couple of examples.

You have :Td: :Th:

Board reads:

:Qc: :Tc:

:Kc:

You're on the button and raised it preflop. Your opp bet the flop, you raised. He check calls the turn. Checks to you on the river. The pot is large enough for him to justify a check raise all-in. Do you value bet, push, check?

You have :Ac: :Td:

Board reads:

:Jd:

:Qd: :Kh: :Kd:

Limped pot. Flop checked around. Short stack bets pot on turn. You raise. He checks to you on the river.

Do you put him all in for an amount that is barely larger than the pot? Value bet? Check?

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r8ed

11-23-2005, 02:07 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,524

I check behind on the first one just because too many possibilities. I would put out a 1/2 pot bet on the river on the second. I don't think he has the flush or the boat based on his betting here.

I'm way too passive on the river usaully, so these aren't recommendations. I just want to put them down and see if others play differently.

Rondavu

11-23-2005, 03:03 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

I value bet the first spot almost every time. If my opponent is a notorious "aggressive/slowplayer with nuts" combo pack I might check behind depending on the other elements of the read. No need to get hijacked by a poorly executed river trap attempt in occasional spots.

In the second spot I drop the hammer a lot to get the lowstacked second hand calling. One thing is for certain in the second hand. You WILL hold up almost always, unless your against a diamond suited K or something strange like that. If you are than it doesn't hurt bad against a non threatening lowstack opponent.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

zenbitz

11-23-2005, 04:28 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 2,911

Easy one first - 2nd hand bet out. I don't see short stack semi-bluffing the turn, after checking the flop, so I put him on a K. I don't think it matters much if you bet half his stack or his whole stack. If he doesn't fold, he'll be all in.

1st hand... I gotta admit I'm worried about the straight or flush. The straight is more likely but I can't see him being worried about YOU having the flush. Other likely holding is a weak Q or strong T. I just can't seem him calling a decent sized value bet with those hands, and a really aggo guy might push over a weak bet. So, I think you have to bet large (pot sized) which means you are very unlikly to be called by a single pair. I would check behind unless villian showed very passive fishy tendencies.

BankItDrew

11-23-2005, 06:53 PM

#5 (permalink)

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1) Check. A jack beats you, along with two clubs.

2) Value bet for trip kings. hard spot, worried about a full house.

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Checkways

11-27-2005, 01:33 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 249

Good responses. I played them the same way as you guys, so I'm glad. The results weren't good, but I think I have to play them the same way you guys did.

On the first hand, the opponent had 55. I think he was planning on check raising me on the turn, but when I bet it big, he got scared that he was oversetted and decided to just check call through the river. I of course, thought for a long time on the river, and just checked. I really couldn't put the guy on a jack. The only hand he could have with a jack would be QJ prompting a call when he got open ended on the turn. But really, that's the only jack. Flush however was a possibility, but I still felt kinda weak by checking the river. I think it was the right play though as you guys stated.

On the second hand, the opponent had KJ for a house. I put him all in on the river which was exactly what he wanted of couse. I think I just have to pay the guy off there. Especially since he's short stacked. Really not much I could have done there I don't think.

Here's one more question if you guys will continue to play along here.

You have

in late position. You raise and get one caller in middle position. Your opponent is very laggy. Probably way too loose. He's not exactly Gus Hansen, but difficult to play against at times.

200NL game. You have $260 your Laggy opponent has $315.

Pot is $23.
The board is

He checks to you. You bet $20. He calls.

Turn is

Pot is $63.
He checks. Worried about the four or a set, you check behind him.

River is :Kh:

Pot is still $63.
He bets $30. You have $230 left. He has you covered.

QUESTION ONE: Do you raise him hoping he has two pair or a set? Or do you just call, worried about the four?

QUESTION TWO: If you raise and he pushes back all-in do you call?

bearcats05

11-27-2005, 02:39 AM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2005

Posts: 336

For this last one it would help to know how much you bet pf. And it would also help to know what he had been calling with on those kind of raises.

Without knowing that I think you should reraise him but not too much. If he reraises allin i think you have to fold.

ThelVlaster

11-27-2005, 04:31 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posts: 222

If your opponnent is laggy, then why is he checking the flop and turn? Is he slowplaying his made straight? Or is he afraid of it too.

I have to think that a laggy player would try to utilize these scare cards to take down the pot.
I say he has the straight.

11-27-2005, 04:58 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Checkways

12-02-2005, 01:18 AM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 249

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearcats05

The pot was $23 on the flop. So that's a 4xbb raise of $10. He's very laggy and pretty much will call with anything in any position .

Checkways

12-02-2005, 01:21 AM

#11 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 249

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThelVlaster

Good point. And you were right.

I raised him on the river and he pushed all in. I then realized that there's NO WAY I have the four and he knows that. Therefore, he could make this same move with any two pair or trips. Thus, I called.

His hand.

Joy.

Fnord

12-02-2005, 01:24 AM Post subject: Re: value betting on a scary board

#12 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkways

You have :Td: :Th:

Board reads:

:Qc: :Tc:

How much money is behind? If a bet commits me to call a raise then I would check behind. If I have something like 1/2 pot left, I stick it all in.

Outside of c-bets, I tend to bet large amounts of money (no stupid flop min-raise), so in the hand you described almost all of the money would probably be in the center by the river.

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ChrisBCritter

12-02-2005, 05:53 AM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Falmouth, ME

Posts: 781

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkways

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThelVlaster

Joy.

Interesting... He played the Rippy! Does he post here??

BTW on that last hand. I'd put a laggy player on the 4 very quickly after he check called that flop, and then still slowplayed the straight-making card on the turn... I just call the value bet on the river against that type of player. There are better places to take stacks from this type of player.

Hey knucklehead! Bonk!

Rondavu

12-02-2005, 01:13 PM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisBCritter

There are better places to take stacks from this type of player.

Absolutely. Implied odds are so large overall against this player that it becomes a situation where a smart player will own his stack over time anyway, so no need to flirt with ruin in a spot where a lag player is checking around on a board that potentially beat you.

Of course you have to call the $30 with KKK, but I wouldn't raise.

Just as an aside, I was in a similar hand this morning. I had KQ and raised preflop. A very loose aggressive player called and the flop came out 77Q. I checked, he checked. Turn A. I checked, he checked. River blank. I checked he bet $4 I called. He turned over A7. You have to be careful sometimes when aggressive players start checking weird spots.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

r8ed

12-02-2005, 03:42 PM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,524

That's why I'm not committing large amounts of chips into marginal spots (ie. my "too wimpy" post). Two or three orbits later, I get their money anyway.If they in fact bluff you out of a hand, they probably think they can do it again. I think in cash games you can afford to be patient until you have a good read on somebody and/or a dominant hand. At least at 25NL.

Rondavu

12-02-2005, 05:01 PM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

Yahtzee

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

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