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fade177
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11-11-2005, 08:17 PM
Post subject: Value betting the nuts...
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 144
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Does anyone else find it difficult, when ur first to act with a good hand such as TPTK on the flop and ur trying to show strentgth, the button keeps calling playing very aggro. U bet them out of any draws, but call still. You land the nuts on the river (nut flush) and they've been so aggro u shove it all-in hoping they call instead of value betting it for a call. I find I do this a lot and need to work on getting them to call my nuts... Does anyone else struggle with this, or have in the past and have some advice as to how i can remind myself to extract as much money as possible....
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STIdrivr
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern california
Posts: 580
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in the example you gave depending on the stack sizes i would probably push, no reason to think he wont call on the river if he has been calling big bets the whole time. I will usually value bet if there is not many other hands that could call, but if i think they have a strong hand and the board isnt too scary i will bet it big to try to get more out of them. It just depends on the board, the previous action and the player. If he is very very tight then you should probably value bet.
a small example lets say you have the A of hearts and the flop is 3 hearts, you bet and opponent calls, turn is a heart giving you the nuts, you bet bigger they call, this is where i may push all in on the river because they could easily call with a smaller flush.
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ensign_lee
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The University of TEXAS at Austin
Posts: 2,237
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to continue on stidriver's statement.
...or they could easily fold with anything BUT the nut flush. If youwere trying to trap a set, this is an easy fold for them. They might just not have belived you on the turn. I think a 2/3's pot size bet would normally be in order against a blank slate opponent.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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The value of the nuts is infinite. Therefore the value bet for the nuts is all the chips you have. Git it?
Seriously, it's all situational. Remember that a colossal overbet called one time in three is more profitable than a meek underbet called three times in three. But you have to have a feel for the other guy to figure out if it's even 1 in 3 likely that he would call. I deploy different tactics for all occasions. Usually I don't overbet the river, but some guys love paying off.
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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Definitely depends on the opponent, and my table image to whatever degree.
If I've been overbetting a lot, I'm damn sure going to overbet the nuts.
I'm never betting less than say 2/3 pot here. And hopefully we've built some kind of pot.
I used to push all the time with the nuts, and got more calls than I'd expect. I don't know which is more profitable, but I tend to "value-bet" now...usually a good-sized bet, though.
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STIdrivr
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern california
Posts: 580
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it depends on how big the pot is and stack sizes by the river if going all in would be good, if you have been betting since pre flop going all in on the river might be half the pot or something so you could for sure go all in. if the stacks are very deep you shouldnt just go all in for 3x the pot on the river.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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bet what you think they will call.
Often i make it a now brainer for them to call with the hand i think they have therefore i always get the call and more chips. I only commit my stack when i know the otehr guy will or the pot got so big i had to commit.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Try to put your opponent on a range of hands, the likelihood that he is holding those hands, and what kind of pot odds he may require before making those calls and make a bet that will net you the most money in the long run. Much easier said then done. 
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Fish (which is what people who love calling usually are) love chasing. As long as there is still streets to come there is still a chance that their A high could hit a pair. On the river though, there is nothing left to chase so they just fold. Try and put your opponent on a hand and tailor your bet to suit his hand.
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renegaderob1
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 311
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If it's lower limits, you'd be suprised how often an AI bet will get called...
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Roll Rebuilding (for the second time). Current; $1600 from $300 (previous, $2300 from $15)
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Determine what they may have after the river. If you think they have top pair - bet enough so that they would call you with top pair. If you think they have two pair - bet enough so that it would intice a call with two-pair.
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STIdrivr
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern california
Posts: 580
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so it pretty much comes down to what you think your opponent has and how much he can call with the hands you think he might have. If you put him on the second best hand then he will probably call an all in, if you dont think he has much then bet small so you give him room to go over the top and bluff or call cause he thinks you dont have much.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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The thing is, you will never be able to put your opponent on an exact hand. Anybody who tells you otherwise is sadly mistaken or simply full of shit. Being fairly certain of somebody elses holdings and being correct is very common.
That said, the best approach in this situation is try to take the information available to you and put your opponent on a range of hands and the likelihood that he is holding each hand.
You can blindly push all-in and get called by the second nuts, and congratulate yourself on a great play. You can bet 1/10th the potsize and get called by ace-high and do the same. These are the exceptions, not the rule however.
It takes a lot of practice and analyzing, but you should be making a bet that is going to win you the most money over the long run. If you are confident that your opponent has a near-nut hand, you will probably want to bet very strongly on him. If you think he has a weakish hand, you will probably want to do more of a value-bet and hope your opponent calls with good pot odds or come over the top of you with a big bluff. It really depends on the situation.
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TalentedTom
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 289
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Where I come from TPTK is the nuts. As long as stacks are ~100BB range, you can comfortably move all in with TPTK (AK or AQ on ONLY ON Q high flop). People overplay smalll kickers way too often.
Hands that pay AK: AQ, QK, AJ
Hands that pay AQ: KQ
People overplay these badboys way too often ( not that im complaning )
When i have nuts - either boat or nut straight I move all in
Only thing I value bet is flush.
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Tom.S
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STIdrivr
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern california
Posts: 580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TalentedTom
When i have nuts - either boat or nut straight I move all in Only thing I value bet is flush.
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can you explain this further or give a couple examples of made up hands or something?
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Straights are very well disguised so at low limits i like going allin and getting my "bluff" called by almost anything.
I guess its the same for boats but not quite as disguised. You are probably hoping they have a high 2 pair or 3 of a kind which they will call with.
Hardly anyone calls big bets with a 3/ 4 flush board unless they have a flush themselves.
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