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Outlaw
Old 11-02-2009, 01:34 AM     Post subject: Value #1 (permalink)  
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Today was just thinking about ways of getting more value out of hands. I have been working on creating situations where I can represent different ranges than I actually have in order to exploit villain's tendencies and make him spew that extra bet or two where he normally would have gotten away cheap. Like chess, sometimes if we spend a few more seconds formulating a plan, we can come up with slightly better ways to extra more money.

Here are a couple situations I am finding to exploit:

1. The reverse float- I am noticing there are a lot of serial floaters in 25NL. They notice people c-bet typically 60%+ (even 100%) and decide to float and hope I check the turn so they can bet and take it down. The reverse float is when you call his turn bet and then bet or raise the river. It doesn't really matter what is on the board, it seems to be working 90% of the time. I guess 25NL regs know people like to slowplay big hands so I guess they are assuming I have slowplayed a set or something against them and since they have air here a lot anyways, it doesn't really matter.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($24.65)
SB ($20.25)
BB ($24.30)
UTG ($18.50)
UTG+1 ($37.20)
MP1 ($5)
MP2 ($9.85)
MP3 ($21)
Hero (CO) ($32.95)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2, A
5 folds, Hero bets $1.25, Button calls $1.25, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.85) 3, 5, J (2 players)
Hero bets $1.80, Button calls $1.80

Turn: ($6.45) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3, Hero calls $3

River: ($12.45) K (2 players)
Hero bets $6.45, 1 fold

Total pot: $12.45 | Rake: $0.60

I only try this on players who I notice have been floating a lot to make them back off. To balance this you need to your made hands like this as well sometimes. And that brings us to:

2. Hey dude, I am bluffing here- On a dry board for pot control and deception its okay to take a break on the flop or turn with plans on getting paid later.

In this hand, villain is an okay reg running 15/10/1.8 over 450 hands. He has folded to my barrels before.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($26.60)
UTG ($24)
UTG+1 ($1.40)
MP1 ($23)
MP2 ($5)
CO ($19.40)
Hero (Button) ($27.25)
SB ($18.60)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO checks, Hero bets $1.50, 1 fold, BB calls $1.25, 2 folds

Flop: ($3.35) 9, 4, 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($3.35) J (2 players)
BB bets $2, Hero calls $2

River: ($7.35) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4.75, BB calls $4.75

Total pot: $14.85 | Rake: $0.60

He had 55.

I had villain on a pretty narrow range of a small pp or a two broadways. I knew he had me on a range of Broadways, 22+The flop is dry so I know the villain has either wiffed or hit a set. My check on the flop is to give him serves a main purpose of making him misdefine my hand. What kind of idiot wouldn't bet his pocket pair here? So he has my range on two broadways... So when I check the flop he expects to take it down a lot on the turn. He is then willing to pay off my river "bluff" probably thinking "if that Jack hit him, I am gonna be pissed"

Well this post is getting a bit long so I'll end here. I'll post some more another time if there is interest.
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spoonitnow
Old 11-02-2009, 01:46 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Maybe you should have titled #1 how to piss chips and #2 how to not get value.

Edit: I feel that while this is a pretty accurate description of what's going on here, I could be a bit more detailed. I would suggest doing an EV analysis of your play in #1 starting at the turn, and I would suggest that the range you have suggested in #2 that the big blind calls with preflop is off quite a bit and that's part of why you're considering checking behind the flop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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jyms
Old 11-02-2009, 02:05 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 This is $25NL. Forget about your range. They aren't thinking about your range. This is why it's so easy to get paid when you make a hand. They see their cards and the board. Do they have TP, do they have a draw? That's what they are thinking, I would spend about as much time on that as well. Figure out their ranges. Get value and don't worry about what they think you have as much.
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Outlaw
Old 11-02-2009, 02:28 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Maybe you should have titled #1 how to piss chips and #2 how to not get value.

Edit: I feel that while this is a pretty accurate description of what's going on here, I could be a bit more detailed. I would suggest doing an EV analysis of your play in #1 starting at the turn, and I would suggest that the range you have suggested in #2 that the big blind calls with preflop is off quite a bit and that's part of why you're considering checking behind the flop.
In #1 my plan from the start was to do exactly what happened. Outplay a floater. And yes it was probably -ev in the short term, but I was more concerned about future hands with a guy I see at my tables all the time.

#2. What range would you feel villain has here? What line would you suggest vs that range?

Thanks in advance.
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Outlaw
Old 11-02-2009, 02:32 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
This is $25NL. Forget about your range. They aren't thinking about your range. This is why it's so easy to get paid when you make a hand. They see their cards and the board. Do they have TP, do they have a draw? That's what they are thinking, I would spend about as much time on that as well. Figure out their ranges. Get value and don't worry about what they think you have as much.
So no one at 25NL is thinking about their opponents ranges? Who exactly is they? I agree that you want to play 45/5 peeps for pure value.. but what about people 17/15 or 12/10? (FR)
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spoonitnow
Old 11-02-2009, 02:57 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
In #1 my plan from the start was to do exactly what happened. Outplay a floater. And yes it was probably -ev in the short term, but I was more concerned about future hands with a guy I see at my tables all the time.

#2. What range would you feel villain has here? What line would you suggest vs that range?

Thanks in advance.
Until you do your own analysis I can't answer any of your questions. However, from this line in the OP:

Quote:
It doesn't really matter what is on the board
I doubt you will do any and if I'm right about that then not only are you wasting your own time you're wasting the time of everyone else who replies to this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
This is $25NL. Forget about your range.
Also I very much disagree with this. Forgetting about the relevant ranges is why this thread was made in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Outlaw
Old 11-02-2009, 12:35 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I guess I didn't mean that 100% literally. Of course the board matters, but the main idea behind #1 for me was to exploit a serial floater who I had seen do so to myself and others multiple times. It wasn't to go in depth on the particular hand itself.

I appreciate the input and yes I do want to analyze hands in depth and improve.
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spoonitnow
Old 11-02-2009, 01:12 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
I guess I didn't mean that 100% literally. Of course the board matters, but the main idea behind #1 for me was to exploit a serial floater who I had seen do so to myself and others multiple times. It wasn't to go in depth on the particular hand itself.

I appreciate the input and yes I do want to analyze hands in depth and improve.
The two bolded sections are competing with each other here. Either do it, or don't. If you decide to do it, analyze the EV of your play in this thread, then people help you work on your analysis, and that's how you'll improve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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oskar
Old 11-02-2009, 01:53 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 The line in hand 1 only folds out complete bluffs imo. He's not going to hero-fold pretty much any pair that he bet the turn with. Check-raising the turn puts him in a much more difficult spot. If he calls with a marginal hand he knows he might be facing another bet on the river. If he is on a complete bluff he needs to risk his stack to win, but he also has to worry about semi-bluffs that will call that might be better than him.
I'd c/r a gutshot there if he's a floatmonkey, but I'd be careful. There are manicas who will never give up.

In the AA hand I don''t think you thought this through.
Betting is clearly +EV - he'll peel with most pairs and some broadways and prolly some connectors.
I still never know if the last part of the stats is 3b or AF - please dump the AF and add 3b or 3b vs steal - that will change the ranges a lot.
Checking is 0EV, gives them free draws and makes it more complicated to play because you look very weak, and you basically have to stack off to aggression now.
If the villain isn't going to pound on weakness, then I'd still bet the flop. And if he is, then I'd also bet the flop.
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oskar
Old 11-02-2009, 02:04 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
This is $25NL. Forget about your range. They don't think about your range.
Playing live was really an eye opener for me. For example I show down 77 on 7KK J Q, and one of them goes. "Wow, I never thought you had 77. I thought you had KJ for sure!" - Ok, so I might not be the most deceptive player lohlz, but that's how it goes all the time. "I thought you had an open ender" or... "I thought you had an Ace for sure" (no Ace on the board, just because I raised pre)

You're right... most of them convince themselves that you have a certain hand... but someone who runs 16/13 looks very suspiciously like someone who reads about poker and knows about ranges. Maybe he's not using them, but he's aware that such a thing exists
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Da GOAT
Old 11-02-2009, 02:12 PM #11 (permalink)  
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why are you betting river in hand 1 when your ahead a decent amount

hand 2, bet flop, at least raise turn
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
 
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Outlaw
Old 11-02-2009, 02:25 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I clearly suck postflop. I will get to work on it. Thanks guys.
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Da GOAT
Old 11-02-2009, 02:32 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oskar
The line in hand 1 only folds out complete bluffs imo. He's not going to hero-fold pretty much any pair that he bet the turn with. Check-raising the turn puts him in a much more difficult spot. If he calls with a marginal hand he knows he might be facing another bet on the river. If he is on a complete bluff he needs to risk his stack to win, but he also has to worry about semi-bluffs that will call that might be better than him.
I'd c/r a gutshot there if he's a floatmonkey, but I'd be careful. There are manicas who will never give up.
Why are we willing to c/r THIS gutshot vs a floater?? Imo it gives more reasoning to c/c turn and river if he is massive floater.
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
 
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oskar
Old 11-02-2009, 06:25 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 You can't just call down with A high here unless you know that villains range is extremely polarized. I would know because I've tried. Use PT or HEM to filter for your hero calls with high cards... turn it into a graph for the extra dosage of *puke*.
I agree that c/folding is probably better than donking the river as played, but I still think you're making your life very difficult by just calling the turn oop.

I don't quite understand why you put so much emphasis on THIS gutshot. I would c/r a gutshot with overcard.... But I would c-bet flop c/r turn loads vs a habitual floater.... a draw is obviously good because you don't need as much fold equity to make the c/r profitable. And I wouldn't get too hung up on the showdown value of A high here OOP and with another street of betting to come either.
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spoonitnow
Old 11-03-2009, 12:16 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 [ ] OP has posted analysis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Da GOAT
Old 11-03-2009, 08:22 AM #16 (permalink)  
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this gutshot is still ahead of all his bluffs. i dont like the c/r because I doubt there are any thin value bets going in from opp on turn so you're only folding out hands we beat. also if we are called we should give up on river.
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
 
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amir is cool
Old 11-03-2009, 08:29 AM #17 (permalink)  
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this thread is titled value.
Quote:
[21:38] <dranger> WTF HAPPENED WHEN I WENT TO BOOT CAMP
[21:40] <kiwiMark> THERE IS A NEW PRESIDENT OF THE UNITES STATES CALLED BARACK OBAMA AND HE'S NOT VERY WHITE
[21:40] <kiwiMark> THIS IS NOT A LEVEL.
 
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