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Werddown
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12-14-2005, 03:38 PM
Post subject: UTG w/ AK os?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 302
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Do you usually raise AK when you're UTG at a tight low limit ring table? Seems alot of the time if I raise it, I get all folds. Would a limp re-raise be good?
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Hmm...
I raise it for value but play accordingly depending on situation on flop (hit/miss, coordination texture, no. of opponents, cbet or check it down)
AK is dominating all weaker aces, and it's pretty good to flop an ace against weaker ace in RAISED pot...
It's definitely raising hand, ANY position. Calling raises/reraising is a different story...
On tight tables I'd still just raise, LRR is good for aces/kings, preferably kings...
If raising preflop just takes the blinds it basically means, the opponents had crap anyway, if they had KQ or JT they'd call.
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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EricE
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12-14-2005, 03:51 PM
Post subject: Re: UTG w/ AK os?
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#3 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Werddown
Do you usually raise AK when you're UTG at a tight low limit ring table? Seems alot of the time if I raise it, I get all folds. Would a limp re-raise be good?
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It totally depends on the table. If a 3x raise will usually get all folds then you can try the limp. I personally don’t like the limp reraise but it can work…especially at the lower stakes where people don’t know what it is. If you do this just be aware that with more people in the pot, C-Bets and pure aggression are less likely to win you the pot. Make a hand first.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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If you get re-raised pre-flop, do you fold?
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I used to limp AK 75% of the time. It was a losing hand for me. Now I always raise from all positions and it's a winning hand for me. Alot of it is just C-bets too and showing enough preflop aggression to get other hands more action. If somebody reraises, then call if it's not a large raise. Otherwise if you know they are tight, let it go. The only hands that dominate you are AA/KK. You are even or ahead of other hands.
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Fnord
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12-14-2005, 05:47 PM
Post subject: Re: UTG w/ AK os?
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#6 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Werddown
Seems alot of the time if I raise it, I get all folds.
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Consider a smaller opener and raise more often.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i raise, and probably see a reraise and play from there.
Limp reraise with a unmade hand has always been -ev in my book, simply because people refuse to believe me because of my seemingly aggro post flop play. But, i guess that may be the best play, even though i dont use it
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i raise, and probably see a reraise and play from there.
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How often are you getting re-raised? What game/stakes/site? I rarely see a 2nd bump pre-flop in the games I play in, outside of QQ+ and shorties.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i raise, and probably see a reraise and play from there.
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How often are you getting re-raised? What game/stakes/site? I rarely see a 2nd bump pre-flop in the games I play in, outside of QQ+ and shorties. |
ok ill clarify that
Lets say full ring 100nl or less. AQ reraises me on fishy sites eg pokerroom skins I have no idea why i get this, but i do. My raise from utg is automatically a bluff it would seem 
I did play a limited number of 200nl full ring hands where i was reraised not at all.
I dont know if its just me but when i raise in ep in full ring, especially at lower limits im getting reraised with unmade AQ/AJ a lot. They obviosuly just think im a fish/weak.
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cryptyk
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 29
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I think conventional wisdom is to raise 2xBB UTG with a good hand. Opening the pot with a call is a no-no. Pump it or dump it.
What you wish you could do with AKo is raise 4x. Unfortunately since you're UTG, opening the pot with a 4x raise will push almost everyone out (except the hands that are beating you). Try a 2-3x raise instead.
The basic idea is to put people to difficult decisions. Limping makes it easy for the blinds to come in and opening with a call invites a family pot.
Conversely, raising big from UTG makes it easy for everyone to lay it down. They dont have anything invested. When it gets folded to the blinds, even the BB doesn't haev great odds to call garbage if it's heads up and he is now out of position.
One more quick thing is to never let your hand dictate your preflop raise. It lets other players put you on a range. Better is to alter your bet based on position.
-c
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Dear god no.. don't open with a 2x raise.
Not only is it terrible play, but it pisses everybody off as well. 
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harmisajedi
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: sf bay
Posts: 41
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Dear god no.. don't open with a 2x raise. Not only is it terrible play, but it pisses everybody off as well. |
words of wisdom. 2xbb can & will be called by any two cards, & the more callers you have, the more pot odds are involved & even more people call. 2xbb raises are how you end up w/ 5-6 people seeing the flop.
as somebody else has posted, the amount of your raises should always depend on the kind of table you're sitting @. lower limit fish-fests, anything but 4-5xbb will get you 3-4 callers & instead of isolating weaker aces/marginal hands like kj/qj, you'll have to worry about all kinds of trashy two-pairs, trips & ridiculous draws. on a table w/ 4-5 solid players, 3xbb utg is a respectable raise that'll usually do the job.
here's my reasoning for never l/rring w/ ak, even on a very weak table: ak, although in theory the third best hand, is extremely vulnerable preflop. in relatively sane ring games, calling an all-in w/ ak is usually an altogether unwise thing to do.
let me elaborate: in a l/rr scenario, what do you do if somebody comes over the top? pp fish-fests excluded, you'll usually find yourself in a position where @ best you're a flip (but usually aren't, because somebody else got dealt & folded an ace or king) & @ worst you're dominated. w/ an initial raise, however, you can safely call a preflop pot-sized rr knowing that w/ the exception of just two hands, you're getting the correct pot odds for the play.
the whole anna kournikova business came about for a good reason, & i've had to learn the hard way that ak is made to isolate opponents & see a flop, period.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Dear god no.. don't open with a 2x raise.
Not only is it terrible play, but it pisses everybody off as well. |
I treat min raise PF just like the BB. Meaning that if my hand was worth seeing a flop without the raise then I'll call a 2x raise also. I completely ignore a 2x raise because it doesn't mean anything.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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cryptyk
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 29
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EricE
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Dear god no.. don't open with a 2x raise.
Not only is it terrible play, but it pisses everybody off as well. |
I treat min raise PF just like the BB. Meaning that if my hand was worth seeing a flop without the raise then I'll call a 2x raise also. I completely ignore a 2x raise because it doesn't mean anything. |
Interesting. Especially because you all seem to agree on this. It may just be my table selection, but online at Party 50NL, a 4x raise UTG usually takes down the blinds and nothing else. A 2x raise gets me 1-2 callers. Occasionally it will elicit a raise to 4x.
Maybe 3x UTG is the right amount on those tables, because I know 4x isn't.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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I tend to raise with this hand preflop. If I get reraised, depending on who the raiser is and my read on him, I will lay it down, call, or even go over the top of him. I don't do this often, but with the right read it can be a profitable play. If I know the guy also has AK, or has AQ, or possibly JJ/QQ, my reraise will look like AA/KK. Again, I don't do this often.
On the flop, depending on the number of players, I will usually c-bet it 3/4's the pot. I will move cautiously if called/reraised, even if an A or K is on the board. Most people calling big UTG raises are set-hunting...
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Dear god no.. don't open with a 2x raise.
Not only is it terrible play, but it pisses everybody off as well. |
Exactly. I like to come over the top of min-raisers with a 8-10x's BB raise. Sometimes with any two. Now where does your AK stand?
Your min-raise tells me that you possibly have, a) a monster, or b) a hand you like, but not an overly powerful hand. Depending on my read and stack sizes I'll jam the pot, and take your 2 BB plus everyone else that was silly enough to call.
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Krieg1984
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 93
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ultimate George
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Dear god no.. don't open with a 2x raise.
Not only is it terrible play, but it pisses everybody off as well. |
Exactly. I like to come over the top of min-raisers with a 8-10x's BB raise. Sometimes with any two. Now where does your AK stand?
Your min-raise tells me that you possibly have, a) a monster, or b) a hand you like, but not an overly powerful hand. Depending on my read and stack sizes I'll jam the pot, and take your 2 BB plus everyone else that was silly enough to call. |
The squeeze play against a fishy 2xBB can very nice indeed. The great things I've noticed about this move:
-If the PFR does have a marginal holding, he'll fold, and if there were a few callers sitting in mid/late position, they will most likely fold as well (few players would have the audacity to sandbag a big pair in this situation.)
-If the PFR has a monster, as some minraisers will no doubt occasionally possess, he'll let me know. If I'm reraised strongly, I'm gone; if just called, I'm looking for a big flop and that's it.
-The play is incredibly good for image, whether I win the pot or not. At full ring games I play an incredibly TAG game (usually only seeing 15% of flops) but playing some hands in this decisive, "maniac" manner creates the impression that I am actually a maniac, and some of my big hands get paid off later.
I know the topic is about raising AK in EP, and I didn't mean to hijack the thread. For the record, playing online SSNLHE, I always always open AK in EP for 3x+. In live play against decent/good players I will occasionally (maybe 10% of the time) just call with AK in EP to mix up my game, because they tend to think I'm set hunting, or slowplaying aces or cowboys.
NOTE: When I typed "fishy" in the first sentence, I didn't mean that if you attempt a 2xBB raise you are a fish. Far from it. i do it maybe 3% of the time for purely deceptive reasons, and I have been screwed by a minraise or two before. (Not cool.)
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Lukie: "Yo Fnord I was playing omaha earlier"
Lukie: "I got dealt quads"
Lukie: "but everyone folded to my raise  "
Lukie: "I was going to pwn everyone"
Fnord: "Gotta slowplay them big hands man..."
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