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The Izebox
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09-23-2006, 07:29 PM
Post subject: Using poker tracker. pahid stats for reads
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: bronx new york
Posts: 255
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Ive had poker tracker since january, but for the most part ive used to analyze my own play and fix holes in my game. For making reads i go mostly on feel and notes. I just purchased PA Hud, and Im really lost in terms of how to use stats in actual play. Besides the obvious (a guy whos 10/1 3bets all in) how do you guys use these stats to make reads? If possible could you post some examples?
Thanx
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Me? I always tell the truth.
Even when I lie.
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ThelVlaster
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 222
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zook
I give some quick advice, but there have to be some good references out there somewhere. FTR veterans please correct me where you disagree.
Crucial stats: VP$IP, PFR, WTSD%, number of hands
From being around the forums I'm sure you have a good idea about these but here are some general guidelines:
- VP$IP<10 = rock, 10<VP$IP<20 = tight, 20<VP$IP<30 = loose, VP$IP>30 = very loose, likely a fish.
- PFR<5 = passive pre-flop, 5<PFR<10 = average, 10<PFR<15 = aggressive, PFR>15 = maniac
- WTSD%<15 = rock, probably can be pushed off hands post-flop, 15<WTSD%<20 = average, 20<WTSD%<25 = slightly loose post-flop, may make marginal calls, WTSD%>25 = calling station
- Number of hands: don't look at anything under 25, and use anything under 50 as a guideline only. Over 50 hands pre-flop stats start to get more reliable, but I still try not to put too much stock in them until I have 100+ hands. Post-flop stats require even more hands (250+?) to become accurate because most players are folding more than 75% of hands so the sample size is much smaller.
Other stats I have on my HUD: attempt to steal %, continuation bet %, fold to continuation bet %, flop/turn/river aggression frequency, fold to fold/turn/river bet %
These are less important and I only pay attention to them when I have at least 100 hands on a player, preferably a lot more. I'd recommend starting with a simple HUD layout, getting used to it and then adding stats as you feel comfortable or think you could get use out of them.
VP$IP = Voluntarily Put $ in the Pot (percentage) - How often you put $ into the pot pre-flop outside of the blinds.
PFR = Pre-Flop Raise (percentage) - How often you raise pre-flop.
WTSD = Went to Show Down (percentage) - How often you go to showdown after seeing a flop. |
Use vp$ip to put opponnent on a range of hands. The higher vp$ip is the larger the range is. The more hands you beat in that range, the easier it is for you to continue in the hand.
I also use PFR to see how likely it is for someone to limp a premium hand. If PFR is below 5, watch out.
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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To start off with
VPIP
PFR
Total Aggression
Total Hands
when more experienced with HUD I would also like to know
c/bet frequency
WTSD%
I add more stats as soon as I am comfortable with the extra info on screen.
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2_Thumbs_Up
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 271
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I love the c-bet stats. If someone has a decent PFR and c-bet every flop they are great floating targets. I float with any 2 if the flop is unlikely to have hit them. Also a lot of players fold to c-bets ~66% of the time. I know these players never call unless they hit the flop. So I just c-bet 1/2 pot instead of my usual 2/3 pot and shut down on the turn, unless I also got a piece.
Here is another thing that's good to know:
Any paired hand makes up for ~0.45% of someones range.
Any unpaired hand makes up for ~1.2% of someones range.
So if someone raises only AA, KK and AK his PFR will be around 0.45 + 0.45 + 1.2 = 2.1
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thumbs
Any paired hand makes up for ~0.45% of someones range.
Any unpaired hand makes up for ~1.2% of someones range.
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Thanks for this. I've been wondering lately about the numbers and was too lazy to figure it out. If I was to just round it up to .5% and down to 1% for unpaired cards, how far would I be off when estimating on the fly? I know that a 30+% would be less accurate than a 15% but is it reasonable enough to get ranges? As for the c-bet stats, I just added these last night for the first time. I'm trying to get used to one set of stats at a time and using them instead of just putting everything on the screen and not using any of them at all from the sheer amount of numbers staring back. But damn, what a telling number c-bet/foldcbet can be. It's starting to get as though you can see into the future with every stat you learn about and how players react.
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Halv
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pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No hindsight for the blind.
Posts: 1,842
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One thing that has to be noted here is that sample size is hugely relevant for most of the stats. You can't really rely on a small sample of hands to be even close to correct for other stats than vpip and pfr. Someone running 90/40 over say 25 hands is likely to still be a maniac at 250 hands, but someone with a cbet stat of 85 at 25 hands could very well just have been hitting his flops.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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You play 6 max right OP? A standard Tag at 6 max is something like 20/15. 20 VPIP / 15 PFR. The tighter players have lower VPIPs/PFRs, obviously. You will occasionally see somebody is like 22/3, which means they're tight and limp or cold call raises the majority of the time. So when they raise (or reraise) it's almost always a huge hand. The nittiest players I've seen are somewhere around 14/10. I personally am about 23/17, which is TAG but pretty aggro preflop. I raise and reraise a fair bit.
The fishy players will have really odd lopsided stats like 40/2 or 70/30. Most people with vpips over 35-40 are bad postflop players and bad players altogether generally. Most good players have a vpip of 15-30, PFR 12-20. You want to have your PFR be very close to your VPIP, which just means that you are raising often preflop when you play and are more apt to reraise somebody than to just call preflop.
So look to play against players with high VPIPs, and players with low PFR stats are also easy players to exploit and not difficult at all to play against.
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MiJ
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Miami
Posts: 208
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here's one instance where i use PAhud stats for floating ...
example
say player A (A tag 20/10 pfr) raise s4xbb ..
you Player B call in position with 44...
you look at your stats and you see Player A has an AF of 4 on the flop but an AF of 1 on the turn ....he makes a standard Cbet on the flop unless the flop is super scary or has a bunch of face cards ...this is an instacall ....
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i refuse to use PAHUD for nl games. It makesme make dumb calls all to often becuase i follow some numbers instead of my gut at times.
Saying that i live and die by it playing lhe 6max. Obviously those stats are quite different to NL 6max stats.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i refuse to use PAHUD for nl games. It makesme make dumb calls all to often becuase i follow some numbers instead of my gut at times.
Saying that i live and die by it playing lhe 6max. Obviously those stats are quite different to NL 6max stats.
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Using it can lead to bad decisions, but you have got to be kidding if you can't use those stats to your advantage. The VPIP/PFR of a player is so important to know. I really don't pay attention to any other stats besides those two.
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