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birdman417

07-13-2009, 05:04 PM Post subject: Using notes for generalizations

#1 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: US

Posts: 82

I am attempting to keep better notes on players but most of my notes are very specific examples and I have troubles using them as guidelines/generalities for later play.
Examples of crap I've written
1st person:
"completed in SB with 26s"
".18c PFR BUT with 99"
"all in PF with TT MP, Axs called & completed flush"

2nd person:
PFR all in with 22 BUT
PFR all in with A4s MP
.24c PF raise with AA"

Could anyone make generalities on these scribblings or should I be more detailed/complete with them? TIA

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spoonitnow

07-13-2009, 05:17 PM

#2 (permalink)

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"PFR all in with 22 BUT"

Not enough detail. Stacks are important (in big blinds) and it's not clear if they just shoved, 3-bet shoved, 4-bet shoved, etc.

".18c PFR BUT with 99"

Bet sizes should be in terms of big blinds preflop and in terms of a fraction of the pot post-flop. If you're playing 10nl and see this guy later on, this note is useless.

"completed in SB with 26s"

This is fine. You can assume from this note that they are limping any two suited that they wouldn't raise, and probably a lot more.

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Sir Pawnalot

07-13-2009, 05:20 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

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Location: Norway

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Its fantastic that you take notes, but these are obviously of little practical application.

Rather try to encapsulate his tendencies, frequencies and level of thought in a short description. F.ex; S TAG, C/R da nuts, C-bet high, no 2 barrel, 2 level.

Just an example, and the important thing is that the notes help you pay attention to detail. It also helps us to more easily make notes in future.

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A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

birdman417

07-13-2009, 05:31 PM

#4 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: US

Posts: 82

While this is still in my head clearly I can answer some of the questions/comments by spoon and pawn..(and thanks for the input)

Usually when I note someone, PFR means they opened, in these cases they were all just shoves.

.18c BB PFR would equal 4.5x BB raise... I guess to someone reading it out of context it would be mostly useless, but I knew what i level I was playing and didnt state that anywhere for others to know. sry ( i was playing 4nl)

Pawn: even with your notes, I wouldnt be sure of my actions in specific situations...this is what I'm trying to learn, I can be pretty dense sometimes...lol

Vinland

07-13-2009, 06:52 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Vinland is an unknown quantity at this point

Good advice so far...

I take notes in the low micro levels and its usually pretty specific like
how much they bet (as a % of pot) with TPTK, did they bet strong w/ only 2nd pair. Are they stacking off w/ TPGK etc...

Also see if they're pfr are different for the different cards they hold...some guys will min raise pf w/ KQo but then 10Xbb w/ KK...

I also try to see what players bet aggro w/ their made hands and which players trap...

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Micro2Macro

07-13-2009, 08:05 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Before I take any notes on players I make a subtitle in the note box of what game/stakes they were playing.

For example:

"$25nl full ring"

"$5 SNG (18)" (where the number in brackets is the number of entrants)

Then under where I saw this player, I add notes using bullet points below. If I have a regular who is playing multiple games/stakes I may have several different headings. Under each I will note interesting things they do that don't really add up with their stats, or perhaps something that they do which stats will tend to ignore. For example triple barrell A9842 with JT allin 100bb/overbet shove river with nuts/call down 2nd pair vs me on K9247.

Not saying these notes are that great, they're the only examples I could think of at the moment. I kinda suck at note taking, but I think my overall organization is alright. Note taking is something I'm aiming to improve at the moment...I just started keeping track of the stakes/game of the players since I have noticed some tend to jump around like me.

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spoonitnow

07-13-2009, 08:08 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by birdman417

.18c BB PFR would equal 4.5x BB raise... I guess to someone reading it out of context it would be mostly useless, but I knew what i level I was playing and didnt state that anywhere for others to know. sry ( i was playing 4nl)

It doesn't matter. Later on these notes are going to be useless if you are playing higher stakes and so are they.

Sir Pawnalot

07-13-2009, 08:29 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Yeah!

Imagine you play some 200/400 HU with him down the road, and your notes are "raises to 16 cent with AA".

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

only_bridge

07-13-2009, 09:20 PM

#9 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

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Location: Linköping, Sweden

Posts: 100

Im not very good at taking notes, but usally write things like "limps in with A6", "small donkbid means nothing", "may limp from UTG with AA"

bjsaust

07-13-2009, 09:29 PM

#10 (permalink)

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I think these notes are fine. The next step is to take these notes and work out ways to use them. You're definately on the right track. For me:

"completed in SB with 26s"

If I'm in the BB I'm raising ATC when he completes somewhat large and betting a lot postflop if called. He has a super weak range to complete.

"all in PF with TT MP, Axs called & completed flush"

2nd person:
PFR all in with 22 BUT
PFR all in with A4s MP

Ok, so both these guys you know you can stack off pretty light preflop. Perfect.

.24c PF raise with AA

If thats large, then large bet = big hand, small bet = small hand. Only call large bets with PPs to set hunt, and raise up those small ones with decent hands.

I do like to use bb's instead of $s.

Just playing to improve.

birdman417

07-13-2009, 10:42 PM

#11 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: US

Posts: 82

thank you all for your input. some of this is sinking in (FINALLY!)

spoon is totally correct (is the guy ever wrong??)
the ".24c raise" (now 6x BB raise) notation is useless without stack size. It makes a huge difference if the ".24c raise" is the 1/4 of his stack or 1/50th his stack. Same with "all-in" notations.

Bjsaust:
"completed in SB with 26s"

If I'm in the BB I'm raising ATC when he completes somewhat large and betting a lot postflop if called. He has a super weak range to complete.
edit: spoon said something about his play/read in his first post and it took some matriculation to finally see it..credit where credit is due

THIS^^^^
is what i was looking for..and the ".24c" guy" with AA was the same guy as "all in with 22" and the .24 was a MUCH smaller raise

linaker

07-13-2009, 10:53 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Location: UK

Posts: 70

I try to abbreviate my notes as much as possible. I use lines, so for person 1, I'd have:

NPFR:
PFR: TT(MP AI 8)
SB: L62s

NPFR = No Pre-flop raise
PFR = Pre flop raise
SB: L62s means limped 62s in small blind.
TT(MP AI 8) means went AI with 8 BBs (or whatever it was) with TT in MP. I would not have included the Axs call in my notes.

For person 2, I'd have

PFR: AA(6), A4s (AI 10 MP), 22(AI 16 BU)

AA(6) means open raised 6 BB, A4s (AI 10 MP) means open raised 10BB.

So I end up with notes like this:

NPFR: AA (MP), TT (BU), 44 (LC4 UTG)
PFR: AK(3bx3 BB), A5s (4 BU), KJs(4 3bAI MP), 88(AI 10 SB)

LC4 Limped and called a raise of 4BB
3bx3 means re-raised 3 times the amount of the raise. ie if raise was 3BB, 3bet 9BB

I find this helps with putting opponents on ranges pre-flop. I am constantly amazed by how many people limp premium pairs and raise Ax .

I put th date instead of the stakes, but that may not be a good plan as in a years time I might not remember what stakes I was playing.

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Using notes for generalizations

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