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Unpredictable donkeys

  
 
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Raoni_Poker
Old 09-30-2010, 09:13 AM     Post subject: Unpredictable donkeys #1 (permalink)  
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Hey, guys!

I'm posting some hands that happened this month with unpredictable donkeys. I think they are somewhat harder opponents than weaktight regs because you never actually know what they are holding. They overvalue their hands so much that you never know were you are (some of them like to bluff frequently).

I warn you, these hands are very bizarre. If you are a sensible person, please...stop reading.

HAND 1: besides his gay bet on the flop, this hand is actually very readable. I knew what the guy had...I narrowed his range to 2 possible hands and yet...I called. I called here with TPTK because these donks can have lots of hands here (JQ is one of them. J-x clubs also).

The donk was 36/16.

In the next day after this hand...I had an almost exact situation (AJ facing heat on the flop and turn). I called the check raise on the flop with Top pair, but folded the turn.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($10.16)
UTG ($6.13)
MP ($10)
Hero (Button) ($10)
SB ($12.77)
Preflop: Hero is Button with A, J
1 fold, MP bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold, BB calls $0.25
Flop: ($1.10) J, 3, 4 (3 players)
BB bets $0.10, MP raises $0.80, Hero calls $0.80, BB raises $2.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.45
Turn: ($6.40) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $7.56 (All-In), Hero calls $7.40 (All-In)
River: ($21.20) K (2 players, 2 all-in)
Total pot: $21.20
Results below:
Hero had A, J (one pair, Jacks).
BB had 4, 4 (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: BB won $20.30

HAND 2: Luckly, I had a hand strong enough to call here, but this is a typical case of hand overvalue. On a wet board like this he flats my raise and shoves the turn. Easy call with these stack sizes. I should be able to fold if effective stacks were deep (thats the problem of playing deep with donkeys).

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($1.85)
Hero (Button) ($10)
SB ($9.72)
BB ($3.96)
UTG ($10.46)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 7, 7
UTG bets $0.35, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.35, SB raises $0.55, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25
Flop: ($1.90) 7, 8, 9 (3 players)
SB bets $1, UTG calls $1, Hero raises $4.15, SB calls $3.15, UTG calls $3.15
Turn: ($14.35) 2 (3 players)
SB bets $4.97 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero calls $4.97
River: ($24.29) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $24.29
Results below:
Hero had 7, 7 (three of a kind, sevens).
SB had 2, 9 (two pair, nines and twos).
Outcome: Hero won $23.08


HAND 3: You might be saying now...I can't believe you called that first hand, it was so obvious. Well, affer this hand you'll have an idea of how these donkeys are. Donkey was 65/24 and was fairly aggressive. He bets 40% of flops, so...I gladly called here with 8s. He bets again 1/2 pot after a brick on the turn. I honestly think that a donkey like this one bets stronger a T or 99+. I call again and I'm folding the river to any spades and I'm value betting if he checks to me. The river is a 4. I decided to make a thin value bet to be called by a 7-x. To my surprise, he check raises me all in.

I used my whole time bank to make this call and I was pretty sure I was beat here. However, his line does not make any sense. How a big hand here is not betting? Why he thought I was betting after calling 2 barrels? The river card is not scary or shomething.

This became a clear bluff to me...I called.

In retrospect, there is not much value on betting the river, though. I'm getting my share of river check raises...I should just check behind.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($10)
BB ($10.32)
UTG ($10.11)
MP ($10)
Hero (CO) ($10)
Button ($10)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 8, 8
UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.50, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.40
Flop: ($1.15) 7, 10, 10 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.57, Hero calls $0.57
Turn: ($2.29) 2 (2 players)
UTG bets $1.14, Hero calls $1.14
River: ($4.57) 4 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.20, UTG raises $7.90 (All-In), Hero calls $6.59 (All-In)
Total pot: $20.15
Results below:
UTG had 6, 5 (one pair, tens).
Hero had 8, 8 (two pair, tens and eights).
Outcome: Hero won $19.15
HAND 4: another river check raise. They do it fairly often, so...there is no way to find a fold here as he is doing this with worse flushes as well. Donk was 99/22 over 50 hands.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (BB) ($10)
UTG ($10)
MP ($10)
CO ($10.19)
Button ($11.17)
SB ($21.38)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 6, K
4 folds, SB calls $0.05, Hero checks
Flop: ($0.20) 6, 2, 10 (2 players)
SB bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40
Turn: ($1) J (2 players)
SB bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50
River: ($2) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.50, SB raises $6.50, Hero raises $7.50 (All-In), SB calls $2.50
Total pot: $20
Results below:
SB had 6, A (flush, Ace high).
Hero had 6, K (flush, King high).
Outcome: SB won $19




I'm struggling against these donkeys. Any thoughts on how to counter unpredictable players?
 
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OngBonga
Old 09-30-2010, 01:46 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 First hand is horrible. Yeah he obviously has a set for me, what makes you say this guy is a donkey? What are his stats running at? I don't mind his weak bet on the flop, it's a dry raised flop that is likely to have hit one of the other two, so it's begging for a raise from a jack or overpair, and a call from an ace or underpair. A larger bet likely only gets called by a jack, and an ace folds. A check here loses value.

If this guy is capable of spewing like in the third hand (is it same guy?), then yeah I'd call TPTK, but I'd need to see him doing this often. I can fold the best hand to these kind of muppets, because if he's spewing with air, my fold only reinforces his style of play in his mind, and he'll do it again. He can't have a set every five hands, so maybe I fold this and patiently wait for a better spot, say overpair, where there's a higher chance he has top pair, and wait for him to spew, which he will if he's a donk.

This call with 88, are you making these good calls often enough to compensate for the AJ hand? If so I think you can go ahead and keep making these hero calls. If not, well, I guess you have to take a different approach with them.

Let them spew and hit them hard with monsters, that's how I tend to get paid off by donks. Obviously sometimes they actually have the goods, but we're men, we can take a punch on the chin so long as we give him three punches in return.
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tyrn
Old 09-30-2010, 07:08 PM #3 (permalink)  
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While all the hands are kind of similar, there's nothing really out of the ordinary about how villains acted. The only difference is some are maniacs, some are passive stations, and the last one likes to get fancy instead of playing abc. Unpredictable if you just sat down at the table, but once you have seen a few hands you can probably produce a more accurate range for them, and make correct decisions.

H1: BB bets then 3 bet on flop behind a caller on the driest of dry boards. Then sticks it in on blank turn. he has a very strong range and is betting the turn because he wants to get it in.

H2: SB bets 1/2 pot, gets called by UTG, then they both call a less than pot sized raise 3-way. Their range consists of top pair and medium strength draws. SB hits what he thinks is his miracle card, and puts it in, though he probably would have called off the small amount left in his stack on that turn regardless if the 2 came. UTG has a weak draw, 22-44, or overcards and the turn card didn't hit him. For whatever reason he figures 1/3 psb 3 way is not the right odds to call and folds.

H3: UTG limp calls PF. his range is weak or suited aces, medium and small suited connectors, as well some small pocket pairs and gaped broadways. The fact he showed up w/ 65o just means he's bad. He leads flop and turn because his hand has no showdown value. He probably decides you're not folding on the river and checks, he then probably interprets your 1/4 pot bet on the river to mean you're folding to a shove and goes ahead and does it.

H4: SB limps and flops middle pair in a limped pot and decides to bet it. He picks up a flush draw on the turn, your call on the flop either means his middle pair is no good or you've got some overcards. His half pot bet is pretty good because he's got some live outs vs a higher pair, and he's not giving a free card if you're holding overcards. River he hits, notices he's got the stones and decided to get a little fancy to try and get a bigger reward. He's lucky you had a flush too, as you're probably not bluffing often in this spot and checking behind your pairs.
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oskar
Old 10-01-2010, 07:41 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Did not read the whole lot. Hand 1 is a clear fold to the 3b This is always a set. Why would he mindonk as a bluff? Hoping someone raises so he can 3b bluff?

The biggest mistake I see there is in your thinking. I know it's hard, but you should NEVER categorize players as 'donks' or 'bad' or 'terrible'. It doesn't help your thought process in any way. There aren't really any intrinsically bad plays in poker, except for checking the nuts IP otr, or folding aces preflop in a ring game, so thinking 'he's so bad, he mindonk/3b a set' is just mental weight that keeps you from thinking properly about the hand.
If he mindonks, you raise, he 3-bets and you fold TP because it really only makes sense for him to have a set there, then he played that hand as bad as he possibly could. As soon as you spazz out with one pair hands and give him your stack, he played it optimally.

Try to think: what can I do to make it a mistake for him to play the way he plays? Or even better: What can I do to extract the most profit from this situation? - How would I play his hand, how would he play my hand, and who ends up with the most chips at the end?
The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
 
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Monsieur_chat
Old 10-04-2010, 02:13 PM #5 (permalink)  
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nh oskar.
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