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Unconventional way to play Rockets.

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paratrooper99

09-17-2010, 07:19 PM Post subject: Unconventional way to play Rockets.

#1 (permalink)

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I was playing live yesterday and started talking to this guy about how he hates AA because everyone set mines him and he can never be sure if he is good. "I usually stack off when the flop is dry." he said. I am in no hurry to give him advice but I put alot of thought into how the most +EV manner to play AA would be.
Doyle says, (paraphrasing) You are either going to win a little pot or lose a big pot with AA.

My thoughts are if we open shove anytime with AA, we get blinds, limped dead money, and any raises behind us 85%-90% of the time.
The other 10-15% we are getting our money in with at least a 4-1 against any decent hand. In fact, the likely calling hands (kk,qq,aks,ako) we have dominated. No worrying about being set mined by a 44 and even though we will lose 20% or so we will make a huge profit long term.

Any thoughts on this?

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CBAT

09-17-2010, 07:27 PM

#2 (permalink)

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d0zer

09-17-2010, 07:40 PM

#3 (permalink)

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some food for thought:

In every single winning player's database that I've seen with a decent sample, aces are always the biggest winner, and they do not open shove aces. This includes all the time that they pay off sets etc.

Sounds like OP is so scared to lose with aces that he's willing to miss a shitton of value with them

!Luck

09-17-2010, 08:13 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Stacking off on a dry flop is worst. If I have to stack off with aces i prefer a 67J with two suites over a 25J flop, any day. Now you tell me why.

But in the end its all about realizing that some players iwll never raise their draws all in. While others will play their TPMK as the nutz.

StarGrinder

09-17-2010, 09:07 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

In every single winning player's database that I've seen with a decent sample, aces are always the biggest winner, and they do not open shove aces. This includes all the time that they pay off sets etc.

This. Anyone who whines about losing with AA obviously doesn't have tracking software, or are too lazy to do a quick filter. I just filtered mine over the past 12 months and sure enough AA, KK, TT, AQo and QQ are top 5 in that order, and AA has won around 65% more than KK.

And if this guy constantly stacks off with AA on dry boards, then WTF, he's not thinking about ranges in the least. If someone check-raises AI on a K528 board, what do they have? It's not that fucking difficult. Obviously that dude is a level 0 fish and I'd do my best to sit with him more often.

Imthenewfish

09-17-2010, 10:13 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by !Luck

stacking AA on 222 than stacking AA on J76tt, and 222. Now you tell me why.

spoonitnow

09-17-2010, 10:59 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

stacking AA on 222 than stacking AA on J76tt, and 222. Now you tell me why.

English motherfucker, do you speak it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

bhaley66

09-17-2010, 11:00 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

stacking AA on 222 than stacking AA on J76tt, and 222. Now you tell me why.

lol wtf?

!Luck

09-17-2010, 11:08 PM

#9 (permalink)

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I would rather stack off on 222 than J76tt. cause on 222 my equity when ahead is significantly greater than vs a draw on a board like J76tt.

paratrooper99

09-18-2010, 01:39 AM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

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Quote:

Good point and I would agree. My stats also indicate this, however it seems to me that especially in microstakes, open shoving may be more profitable because of the looseness of the calls ranging from KK,QQ,JJ,TT,99,88,AKs,AKo, AQs, AQo, AJs, AJo, ATs, and a variety of broadway suited and unsuited combos.

I will try this out for 25k hands and see what numbers come up.

Thanks for the thoughts and keep them coming.

Carroters

09-18-2010, 02:13 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Please don't try this out for 25k hands. What about all the times you fold out Q8s when the flop would have been Q62 or 88 on 733?

daven

09-18-2010, 02:55 AM

#12 (permalink)

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i got aces 13 times today (i ran bad preflop obviously).
I didn't open shove them once.
i made 300bb from those hands, and if i hadn't lost 100bb allin pre AA<AK it would have been a lot more.
I don't think your idea is the most profitable way to play AA.

why not just play them nice and aggro? also, note that first hand is pot limit so i couldn't bet bigger at any point.

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($50)
SB ($133.35)
BB ($45.85)
UTG ($106.20)
Hero (UTG+1) ($71.40)
MP1 ($37.65)
MP2 ($121.55)
CO ($20.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A

, A

1 fold, Hero bets $1.75, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $5.25, 2 folds, SB calls $5, 1 fold, Hero raises to $21.50, 1 fold, SB calls $16.25

Flop: ($48.75) K

, 9

, A

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $48.75, SB calls $48.75

Turn: ($146.25) J

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.15 (All-In), SB calls $1.15

River: ($148.55) 5

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $148.55 | Rake: $3

Results below:
SB had A

, 8

(one pair, Aces).
Hero had A

, A

(three of a kind, Aces).
Outcome: Hero won $145.55

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($23.55)
MP1 ($44.35)
MP2 ($53.40)
CO ($52.75)
Button ($86.70)
SB ($52)
Hero (BB) ($50)
UTG ($76.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, A

4 folds, CO bets $1.75, 1 fold, SB raises to $5.75, Hero raises to $13, CO raises to $52.75 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero calls $37 (All-In)

Flop: ($105.75) 6

, 8

, Q

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($105.75) 10

(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($105.75) 4

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $105.75 | Rake: $3

Results below:
Hero had A

, A

(one pair, Aces).
CO had K

, A

(flush, Ace high).
Outcome: CO won $102.75

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

d0zer

09-18-2010, 03:27 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by paratrooper99

.

Good point and I would agree. My stats also indicate this, however it seems to me that especially in microstakes, open shoving may be more profitable because of the looseness of the calls ranging from KK,QQ,JJ,TT,99,88,AKs,AKo, AQs, AQo, AJs, AJo, ATs, and a variety of broadway suited and unsuited combos.

I will try this out for 25k hands and see what numbers come up.

Thanks for the thoughts and keep them coming.

I'm not so sure 25k hands is a large enough sample. Try 100k & see what you come up with imo

Imthenewfish

09-18-2010, 03:52 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by !Luck

I would rather stack off on 222 than J76tt. cause on 222 my equity when ahead is significantly greater than vs a draw on a board like J76tt.

you had just said that you prefer to stack on wet boards than dry boards, and 222 is a lot more dry than J76tt

jyms

09-18-2010, 03:55 AM

#15 (permalink)

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When you stop calling them "Rockets" and start treating them like the monster they are preflop and an overpair postflop, you will start killing the games. Forget everything you have seen and heard on the television

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dahve3d

09-18-2010, 05:02 AM

#16 (permalink)

Two Pair

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There's a reason your thread is titled "unconventional"

d0zer

09-18-2010, 05:14 AM

#17 (permalink)

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they called Einstein crazy too paratrooper!

100k bra, do it for science!

Johnny Cashout

09-18-2010, 05:47 AM

#18 (permalink)

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filterrrrr

Current Goal: Breaking 50NL
Wish me luck!!!

Check my profile for my personal poker blog!
Constructive criticism welcome!
-looking for comments as I post my daily battles/struggles through 50NL full ring cash games!

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!Luck

09-18-2010, 05:56 AM

#19 (permalink)

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imthenewfish. I think the single card flop is unique example. For stacking purposes vs most opponents i would prefer 222, over wet, but I still think that dry as in all different cards tend to be bad flops to stack off. Not sure if you are nit picking me.

My guess is that around TTT board or JJJ board, I would start to not be as thrilled to stack off cause I suspect 99 is more likely to stack off on a 222 board (at my stakes) than on a JJJ board, plus and though the combos are still small, there are far more hands of Jx vs 2x that most poeple will play for a raise.

kiwiMark

09-18-2010, 08:45 AM

#20 (permalink)

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you craze if you think 99 is gonna be more scurred on TTT than on 222

supa

09-19-2010, 12:06 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by paratrooper99

No worrying about being set mined by a 44

Look at it this way. We hit our set 1 in 8 times when we set mine. If we open shove AA we fold out dead money we get from set miners the other 7 times. Plus, no one ever said we had to stack off to them when they do hit. We just need to learn to fold our aces when it's -EV to continue.

“Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions produce work which will be a material reflection for others to see of the serenity at the center of it all”

Put hero on a goddamn range part II- The 6max years

Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

start using your brain more and vagina less

spoonitnow

09-19-2010, 01:27 AM

#22 (permalink)

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{Locked}

It seems like this topic has been covered as much as it's going to be, so I'm going to pre-emptively lock to prevent the inevitable troll fest to come.

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