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Two pair vs. Set - Poor Play

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xpaand

03-09-2009, 08:39 AM Post subject: Two pair vs. Set - Poor Play

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Vancouver

Posts: 289

Didn't play this well at all. Wondering if I could get some feedback, especially on the turn and if I should have even called on the flop... I didn't have any stats on him as this was the 2nd hand that I got.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($4.13)
MP2 ($4.84)
MP3 ($2.05)
CO ($2.07)
Button ($4.41)
SB ($3.58)
Hero (BB) ($2.05)
UTG ($1.83)
UTG+1 ($2.21)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J

, 8

UTG calls $0.02, 7 folds, Hero bets $0.08, UTG calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.17) K

, 10

, 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.06, Hero calls $0.06

Turn: ($0.29) J

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.29, Hero raises to $0.58, UTG calls $0.29

River: ($1.45) K

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

Total pot: $1.45 | Rake: $0.09

OP: Beginner to Master

If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".

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Stacks

03-09-2009, 08:50 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

I would have checked preflop. No since in building a pot OOP with a marginal hand. And your hand could likely be behind his UTG limping range (as a lot of players limp good hands UTG for that treasured limp/raise).

Then c/f the flop. You are going to be behind his hand a good amount of the time. And the times your not behind, your going to get barreled off of your hand, or he still has decent equity in the pot. What I mean by barreled off is you obviously can't stand continued aggression here. If you check turn (without hitting) and villain bets again, it would be very wise to fold. Even if he is bluffing a whole lot calling him down here is going to be very thin.

As played, I'm not quite sure about the turn. I likely c/c, and c/f this specific river, and a few others.

Keith

03-09-2009, 09:08 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 1,336

Out of interest , what was your thinking for the preflop raise?. Is this in your normal range or were you attempting to fold the UTG limper and steal the blinds.
Also what are your stats like generally , VPIP /PFR/AF. Also with the turn check raise what was your thinking there ?. Was it I've got 2 pair I'm looking to get it all in. Were you trying to represent the flush.With UTG putting a pot sized bet in did you give any consideration to whether he might have the flush or a flush draw.

Stacks

03-09-2009, 09:12 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

One other thing don't tell us what the villain had. In your title "Two Pair vs. Set"... We don't need that information, and in fact you giving us that information (that you won or lost the hand) will (believe me) hinder the opinions and advice you get back.

Illfavor

03-09-2009, 05:11 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: Denton, TX

Posts: 1,152

Besides what the others have said, his tiny flop bet often means a draw, and that turn card completed 1.5 birrion draws, so I really don't like raising there. You either fold out worse hands (PSB on Turn usually means made hand anyway) or bloat the pot when you're smoked.

Also, FWIW, sets are when PP's flop a 3rd card. Trips are when there's two of a card on the board and you have a third in your hand. So this is either TP v. FH or TP v. Trips.

Ich grolle nicht...

AFchung

03-09-2009, 05:12 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: UCLA

Posts: 1,179

check preflop

and probably fold flop. theres no reason to be in a hand with bottom pair OOP

http://afchung.blogspot.com/

xpaand

03-09-2009, 05:18 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Vancouver

Posts: 289

Oh my bad Stacks. Sorry I'm still new to the online poker community. I'll get it right

.

And to Keith. I can't remember why I did that PF raise, but I usually (obviously) wouldn't raise J8s PF. I think I was trying to steal the blinds unless I hit the button by accident haha. And I put him on TPTK, therefore when the turn came, I felt that I could get him to fold unless he had a flush. Then, when he called my rr, I didn't want to put anymore money in the pot.

Very poorly played

Stacks

03-09-2009, 05:26 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

No worries on the results. Just try to refrain from adding them next time to get the most unbiased answers possible.

A few things to note. We can agree that J8s is a marginal hand, correct? And we can agree that position plays a very important role in poker. If this holds true (as it does) then we obviously fair worse when we are playing marginal hands OOP. Therefore, if we are going to do it, it is often best to keep the pot relatively small.

Also, if he had TPTK on the turn you obviously do NOT want him to fold. You are ahead of him and want to get money in the pot. So if he in fact does have TPTK, then you would be c/raising the turn for value hoping he would put the rest of the money in. The fact that he would have hit another King on the river and won would have been of no importance. However, in this spot when you c/raise the turn you are really overrepping your hand here. The turn card is a good card for you; however, it also completes a lot of draws.

But def check preflop, and check/fold this flop.

xpaand

03-09-2009, 05:29 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Vancouver

Posts: 289

Again, I can't really remember what I was thinking, I think it was cause it was the 2nd hand of the night and it was the first time I played in a few days and that somehow led me to play it really off. *sigh*. I hate being a noob.

xpaand

03-09-2009, 05:32 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Vancouver

Posts: 289

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Also, if he had TPTK on the turn you obviously do NOT want him to fold. You are ahead of him and want to get money in the pot. So if he in fact does have TPTK, then you would be c/raising the turn for value hoping he would put the rest of the money in. The fact that he would have hit another King on the river and won would have been of no importance. However, in this spot when you c/raise the turn you are really overrepping your hand here. The turn card is a good card for you; however, it also completes a lot of draws

I wanted him to fold cause I thought there was a chance that his kicker was a club. Thanks for clearly outlining all my mistakes Stacks. And I usually don't even LIMP with J8s. I usually just fold that shit. I play super tight, but when the blinds are 2 freaking cents, it's hard for me to stay disciplined at times lol.

Stacks

03-09-2009, 05:51 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

Quote:

Originally Posted by xpaand

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Well raising J8s is not always bad. But it depends on the situation. Raising J8s UTG at a FR table will often be a losing play. You may win with it at times, but over the long run it will most likely net a losing amount for you. However, raising J8s in the CO/BU when it's folded to you can be very profitable. Raising a limper with J8s when you are in LP can be very profitable as well. It really depends. So instead of looking at the hand as a static entity in which you should always call, raise, or fold, you must start looking at the situation in which you are currently engaged in. And if THIS situation warrants a call/raise/fold.

Also if he has AcKx, then you are a slight favorite, so theoretically you would want him to call your raise as a greater portion of the pot belongs to you. However, we can't put him on one specific hand. We must formulate a range of hands. Which include flushes, AQ, Q9, KT, etc type hands.

xpaand

03-09-2009, 05:53 PM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Vancouver

Posts: 289

Cool. Thanks for the response once again Stacks. I think I've learned the most from you out of everyone on FTR. Micro2Macro's definitely up there too.

Keith

03-09-2009, 07:55 PM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 1,336

when you say that it was the second hand that you got , does this mean that you posted a blind from UTG rather than clicking the wait for big blind button. If so its not a great idea as you are putting money in the pot from one of the worst positions without knowing what your cards are.and If you do get a ok ish hand then you will be tempted into playing it out of position and could well end up losing a fair bit of cash.
I asked what your VPIP/PFR/AF stats were so that we could try and tell whether you are playing too many hands and therefore too many marginal hands and likely from being out of position.

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Two pair vs. Set - Poor Play

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