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joshuadzl
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12-27-2005, 05:32 PM
Post subject: Two aces on the flop, you hold one and a high kicker..
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 287
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So, this is no shit. 4 times in a row. I am starting to think I'm playing this 100% wrong.
I have AK. I raise 4x preflop. Flop comes AAJ. I push, called by JJ.
I have AK. I raise 4x preflop. Flop comes AA5. I push, called by 55.
I have A9. I raise 3.5x preflop. Flop comes AA8. I push, called by 88.
I have AK. I raise 5x preflop. Flop comes AA9. Checked around. Turn comes T. I bet, guy pushes, I call. Beat by pocket 9s.
Am I having bad luck or am I playing dumb? After reviewing, am I wrong to think the only people ever calling here are those who have me dominated? Maybe I am just over analyzing it and still making the best move? The A9 I probably shouldn't have been in there. But I can't ever find a reason why my AK shouldn't be considered good here minus the only people playing the hand from that point on with me probably have me beat. 
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Well, i wouldnt push to start, but to run into higher full houses sucks. Just bet it normally. There are hardly any times you dont go bust if someone flops the full boat on an AAx flop
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hydroseeds
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 115
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Extremely unlucky is what you are.
But happens to the best of us.
I'm always gonna get all my chips in in every one of those situations.
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hydroseeds
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 115
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People are gonna post "Don't push right away", which is good advice - but in the end, if I'm facing a reraise- unless its from super-tight guy- I'm gonna end up losing my stack.
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joshuadzl
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 287
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I've had a string of pretty poor luck lately when it comes to ring, but I've been playing my A game in tournaments the last few weeks so luckily the losses are offsetting but I'm still in my worst swing of all time (down about a grand) so I'm questioning just about everything lately.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dzl
I've had a string of pretty poor luck lately when it comes to ring, but I've been playing my A game in tournaments the last few weeks so luckily the losses are offsetting but I'm still in my worst swing of all time (down about a grand) so I'm questioning just about everything lately.
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im at the right end of that same problem
very similar circumstances in fact. You go bust when these turn its that simple, the same way countless others go bust when u flop the fh on this board
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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You shouldnt push right away. If you have trips with a high kicker against a full house you will lose your stack.
The key to playing these hands is maximising the number of hands that will lose their stack to you. If you play them aggressivly but not overbetting the pot by huge amounts then you will get all sorts of hands to pay you off. High 2 pairs will lose alot of chips to you as will trips with a lower kicker. If you just push into an almost empty pot then you may get a call from trips with a 2 kicker but anything below that will fold outright and you will still lose just as much when you are behind. Having said that, i still think you are getting very unlucky in the number of better hands you are running into. I probably lose my stack on them all.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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You shouldn't just push not because you might loose but because you might cause the opp to fold. You want to get AI by the river, if you loose it sucks, move on.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Hidden vs open strength is part of the story here.
Running bad is the other part. I recently had a run like this.
Set of 2s on a AT2 board, turn T, river T. I fold to a $30 all-in bet into a $150 pot.
Guy raises 3x UTG after just losing a big pot, I call with AJs, medicore player over-calls. Flop is AJT. Titly checks, I pot it, medicore min-raises, I put in half his $60ish stack. Turn is a K and I can't see not putting the rest in with a card to come. Medicore has AK.
...and so on. IT happens.
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p-i
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16
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I think you're extremely unlucky to lose all those but I'm always wary of playing trips (2 on the board, 1 in the hole) like sets (vice-versa) in case I do run into a higher kicker or a full house (whether a set or someone pairing their kicker).
I guess it's one of those things where you win the vast majority of the time but there's always a possibility you're up against a full house. Just like anytime you flop a full house there's always a remote possibility you're up against quads (if this happens, I'm always erring on the side of paying off quads).
I like Pelion's advice. It seems if you push here you're only getting called by hands that beat you or trips with 2nd kicker. Eking value out over the remaining streets gets weaker hands to pay you off.
You've also got a 20.3% chance of making Aces full by pairing your kicker or getting a paired turn+river.
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Disclaimer: Working my way up in 25NL so...
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iRICHeyes
You shouldn't just push not because you might loose but because you might cause the opp to fold. You want to get AI by the river, if you loose it sucks, move on.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
You shouldnt push right away. If you have trips with a high kicker against a full house you will lose your stack.
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I ment You shouldnt push right away. If you have trips with a high kicker against a full house you will lose your stack anyway. You need to get weaker hands to pay you at the same time. Pushing doesnt achieve this
Its similar to playing QQ preflop. Yes you probably have the best hand but if you just push you are likely to win the blinds a few times until you run into KK or AA and lose your stack. If you play it a bit slower you can take JJ and AQ along for the ride. You will still lose a lot to AA and KK this way, but you will win more from lesser hands.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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With AK on an AAx flop my money is always going in. Ax will be much more likely to be up against than a boat. A4 on an AAx flop is a bit easier to get away from.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Pushing AK on an AA9 flop is incorrect. On the other hand, if you raise 99 preflop and get an AA9 flop, it would be reasonable to push right away against a known range.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Hidden vs Open Strength
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Such an important concept in NL. Do you know of any articles that discuss this? I have a friend that could really benefit from the knowledge, and I have a really hard time explaining it to him.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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littlewashu
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12-30-2005, 12:47 PM
Post subject: right or wrong
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#14 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: pittsburgh,pa
Posts: 104
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srry rondavu I dissagree how can pushing some when you turn 3 aces be wrong. the thing that jumps out at me on those hands is that after the raise he made his opps only called him. Now for me that turns on a light. Why would anyone in their right mind only call me after I raised when the figure that i have a set of aces. Unless they are trying to milk me for my stack. Ill even bet on later cards that this guy was pushing and only kept getting called by this guy to keep him betting
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Rondavu
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12-30-2005, 07:20 PM
Post subject: Re: right or wrong
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#15 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littlewashu
srry rondavu I dissagree how can pushing some when you turn 3 aces be wrong?
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Because you win a lot of small pots and lose the big ones. You should push a lot of chips in the middle when there's a very good chance your opponent will call with a worse hand. Opponents call for a variety of reasons. Maybe your image is very bad. Maybe your opponent is very poor. If you're against a very poor opponent, it may be correct to push a flop of trip aces, because that opponent will call with a wide range of pocket pairs. On the surface it seems correct to always push when you have a powerful hand. It seems reasonable. However, It's often a -EV equation against a competent opponent who has respect for you.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
With AK on an AAx flop my money is always going in. Ax will be much more likely to be up against than a boat. A4 on an AAx flop is a bit easier to get away from.
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Dunk
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Metrowest Massachusetts
Posts: 131
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Hidden vs Open Strength
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Such an important concept in NL. Do you know of any articles that discuss this? I have a friend that could really benefit from the knowledge, and I have a really hard time explaining it to him. |
I concur, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
This is what seems to keep killing me out of tourneys, ex:
A2s entered in late position, hitting trips, pushing, losing to AKo who minbet - reraised me from larger stack. I got excited and didn't respect his observed tight play. Ouch.
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Note: new guy and very open to constructive criticism, so go ahead and weigh in! I'm here to learn.
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