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biondino
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02-22-2007, 10:05 PM
Post subject: Turning a good hand into a bluff
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Is "turning a good hand into a bluff" the same thing as "a better hand will call, a worse hand will fold"?
I was chatting to Renton earlier and he reminded me of a hole in my game, which is betting when I should check, especially on the river. I live in eternal fear of being bluffed, so I always tend to think a value/blocking bet is the right move. Can people who know better than me explore this further?
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DubRod
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 112
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I would like to get insight on this as well as I tend to have the similar sindrome often enough.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Here's my question, is this a bluff:
You have AT0, Flop comes JTx.
You 2/3 pot it.
Turn x<T, you 1/2 pot it.
River <T, you 1/3 pot it.
villian calls, flips over KJ FTW. Were we bluffing?
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
villian calls, flips over KJ FTW. Were we bluffing?
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More like very thin value betting, as u will never get the J to fold (not betting enough to do that)..
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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zook
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02-23-2007, 12:48 AM
Post subject: Re: Turning a good hand into a bluff
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#5 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
Is "turning a good hand into a bluff" the same thing as "a better hand will call, a worse hand will fold"?
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Exactly. Turning a good hand into a bluff just means that you're betting or raising a decent hand with showdown value when only a better hand will call. Post some examples where you (or Renton) think you might be doing this.
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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I think my style on the river will differ in a cash game v. a tournament.
In a tournament it is pretty simple. If I'm out of position and took the lead on the flop and get called down or re-raised on the flop, I as myself on the river- "If I bet and get reraised or opponent pushes, am I prepared to call?"
The answer will depend on the action and any read you have on the opponent but if the answer is "yes" then bet the river. If the answer is "no" check.
In a cash game, you can be a little more liberal on the river. Again, it depends if you have a read on the other guy, how many people are left on the river and what is the texture of the board. Did a draw get there?
Sometimes on the river you can bluff if the draw hits, it takes balls and you have to have a good feeling that the other guy will fold. But again, if you are relatively weak such as top pair and good kicker and you can't shake your opponent I would ask the same question as above when deciding how to act out of position on the river.
If you are in position on the river and it is checked to you and you are only playing top pair I would check and showdown since you don't want to offer your opponent a chance to bluff you with a re-raise on the river. I would note that not many players have the balls to pull that off especially online at lower limits since they will usually get called anyway.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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I find it tricky in 6max because people are willing to showdown, and bet, with weaker hands. Let's say I have AQ in MP, raise 4x, and am called by competent 25/15 (which are the same as my stats) CO. Flop comes AK4. I bet, he calls. Turn is 7, I bet, he calls.
Stopping for a sec, what does he likely have, and what does he think I have? I am fairly obviously repping an ace; he knows I'll raise AT+ in this position.
Because it's short-handed, we can keep AK in the equation but it's not his most likely holding. Another ace is likely; a king might call a flop bet, and KQ/KJ/Kxs suit within his range, but I'm not sure he'd call the turn - he might, because I fire multiple barrels on occasion.
River is a 2. I think I am likely ahead of his range; I am behind AA/KK/AK but I think they're all unlikely; I am behind 44 and the considerably less likely 77 or 22; and that's it. I'm ahead of KT-KQ, AT-AJ, and any other PP.
So I reckon I am ahead of about 60% of his range. However, I only have TPGK myself. This is exactly the spot when I don't know what to do, and where I guess checking might be the way forward. Can people comment on this scenario?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I think its ok to turn a good hand into a bluff when its a very vulnerable hand that has little/no value on later streets (like 88 on a 357 board, or JT on a KJ4 board). Usually u aren't winning that much from worse hands on later streets, so may as well raise and not give free cards.
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Tjorriemorrie
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: South Africa
Posts: 57
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@biondino, I have the same situation like that. hope some exp players can help you.
For me I normally keep betting if the opponent calls, as you should win like 90% of the time. But it depends. considering hes on CO he could easily have called with 56s and drawing, as he should put you on high cards and now that he can probably get a lot of money out of you. Or QJs for that matter. But it depends on the suits and the size of the bets as well which you didn't say. problem is calling gives you basically no information. Thus even if he drawed or not, never check on the river (although i stand to correction, e.g. if you have the nuts and want to C/R).
Also look at the diff between VPIP and SF, that should show how loose he is and F-T% and SD%. You could add 'folded to bet on river', which i want to start adding on the hud. Or you can look at his AF, which if low means he could normally slow play with like KK in this situation, lol. but then we need to know the bets and pot sizes...
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"Poker is a game of people... It's not the hand I hold, it's the people that I play with." ~ Amarillo Slim
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
I find it tricky in 6max because people are willing to showdown, and bet, with weaker hands. Let's say I have AQ in MP, raise 4x, and am called by competent 25/15 (which are the same as my stats) CO. Flop comes AK4. I bet, he calls. Turn is 7, I bet, he calls.
Stopping for a sec, what does he likely have, and what does he think I have? I am fairly obviously repping an ace; he knows I'll raise AT+ in this position.
Because it's short-handed, we can keep AK in the equation but it's not his most likely holding. Another ace is likely; a king might call a flop bet, and KQ/KJ/Kxs suit within his range, but I'm not sure he'd call the turn - he might, because I fire multiple barrels on occasion.
River is a 2. I think I am likely ahead of his range; I am behind AA/KK/AK but I think they're all unlikely; I am behind 44 and the considerably less likely 77 or 22; and that's it. I'm ahead of KT-KQ, AT-AJ, and any other PP.
So I reckon I am ahead of about 60% of his range. However, I only have TPGK myself. This is exactly the spot when I don't know what to do, and where I guess checking might be the way forward. Can people comment on this scenario?
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I think a check (with the intention of calling) is good in this spot on the river. A king might not call a third barrel from you, but they might bet hoping you'll fold a weak ace. Any draw won't call a bet, but might bluff. Any better hand won't get a chance to raise us here. We are only losing value from marginal hands we beat, like AJ/AT, which I can live with.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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I'm with griffey. A check might bring a bluff and it's pretty unlikely you're beat here, or that a worse hand will call a 3rd barrel. In a situation where it seems more likely you're beat, like the river brings a three-flush, then a blocking bet is more appropriate.
Something else to consider is a turn check (if the board isn't flushy). It makes your hand look like a missed c-bet and often gets even more value from worse aces.
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