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Vi-Zer0Skill

11-06-2007, 04:16 AM Post subject: Turn Play

#1 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 1,742

Green Plastic talked about this in an older CR video

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($416)
CO ($499.15)
Button ($432)
SB ($527.45)
BB ($187.55)
UTG ($233.45)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A

, Q

.
1 fold, Hero raises to $12, 3 folds, BB calls $8.

Flop: ($26) A

, 5

, K

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $20, BB calls $20.

Turn: ($66)3

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero...

This is a pretty common situation. You c-bet on a drawy flop with something like TPGK or two pair and get called. The turn card completes the draw that was on the flop.

What do a lot of people do in this situation? They check on the turn, and often are faced with a river bet that puts them in a call or fold situation. From what i understand about no limit, it's generally better to be in a bet or fold situation, so let's try to put ourselves there instead. We can do that by betting the turn instead of checking.

By putting out a bet on the turn:

1). If your opponent raises your turn bet, he is very likely holding a strong hand.
2). If your opponent calls your turn bet, he is very likely holding a made hand. And a lot of the time it's a made hand that is weaker than yours, which means you've just extracted an additional value bet from your opponent.

I would size the bet to be between 1/3 and 1/2 the pot size. It isn't so large as to discourage weaker top pair hands from calling, but it also isn't going to encourage a lot of weaker hands to make a move.

Of course, if we only bet this size with hands that can't stand a raise, our smart opponents will be able to rob us blind by constantly bluffing us out of pots. This means you should also sometimes put out a similarly sized bet when you have actually completed a draw on the turn.

Though in a practical sense, against your typical regulars at 100/200NL, i'd say you probably wouldn't even have to worry about balancing your range in this situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

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IowaSkinsFan

11-06-2007, 05:16 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Posts: 7,148

IowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enough

i b/f almost everytime unless its against me and if it was i'd b/c.

Check out the new blog!!!

martindcx1e

11-06-2007, 06:09 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

another good post vi. good work.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

minSim

11-06-2007, 09:08 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2007

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Posts: 1,512

Do we play differently when we have:
1.Ad?
2.Qd?

bode

11-06-2007, 10:46 AM

#5 (permalink)

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bode is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

Do we play differently when we have:
1.Ad?
2.Qd?

it seems like w/ the Ad, and probly teh Qd too, we would want to bet more like 1/2 - 2/3 to get more money in so we can get villains stack if we make our nut hand on the river.

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

Rondavu

11-06-2007, 11:21 AM

#6 (permalink)

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I do something different based on who I'm playing against for a thousand different reasons.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

minSim

11-06-2007, 12:05 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

Do we play differently when we have:
1.Ad?
2.Qd?

it seems like w/ the Ad, and probly teh Qd too, we would want to bet more like 1/2 - 2/3 to get more money in so we can get villains stack if we make our nut hand on the river.

Does that also mean b/c a lot more instead of b/f? Why?

What if we have Jd? 7d?

I'm looking for a reasoning.
- The reason to b/f without a diamond I get, because we want to 'protect' our hand from another diamond getting there. And not a lot we beat is c/r-ing the turn.

I see some reasons for betting the turn having a big diamond;
- Another diamond falling ruins river action against worse hands without a diamond.
- It builds a pot against an op having a big diamond.
- But I'm still not sure about calling a c/r.

(On a side note, what's a general range for villain here? Some A, some K, some FD? Can someone assign which are what part of his range for me? would be great)

naturalassassin

11-07-2007, 06:29 AM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2007

Location: Canada

Posts: 59

Without knowing much about the opponent. I usually check the turn and bet the river. Chances are he called you with a weak ace (maybe diamond).
If a diamond doesn't comes on the river he'll probably check and call a medium bet from you on the river. I would keep the pot small. If he has a strong hand he'll almost certainly bet the river. If he raises on the river then you have a bit more information to make a decision than if you had faced this raise on the turn.

Don't knock on deaths door... ring the bell and run! Death hates that LOL.

Vi-Zer0Skill

11-08-2007, 04:28 AM

#9 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 1,742

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

Do we play differently when we have:
1.Ad?
2.Qd?

i wouldn't. Given the way most people play their flush draws, i would expect a weak A-x/K-x more often than not. Consider that even if we have top pair and a nut flush draw, the turn is still a WA/WB situation. Though if we get check/raised we can actually call a turn raise versus most players.

I would strongly consider folding the Ax-Qd to a big turn check/raise against most players since there wouldn't be a lot of other flushes on the river (if a diamond did come in) that would pay off more than a small river bet.

Rondavu, my OP wasn't opponent specific, and that does make advice for how to play the hand worth less (though not worthless :P ). To specify, i had a thinking/decent opponent in mind when i started this thread. Though against a call station i would bet more since he wouldn't be folding as often, and against a very tricky player sometimes i would check the turn to protect myself from a check/raise etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Da GOAT

11-08-2007, 12:34 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Dublin

Posts: 4,308

i would say that ive checked behind too many times before. b/f turn is much better im sure.

Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.

Silly String

11-08-2007, 01:23 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: KC, MO

Posts: 1,434

Yes, this is great information Vi-ZS. ISF has said this is one of the low stakes players biggest leaks in a past thread. We should b/f instead of c/c in lots of situations. Great explanation to drive the point home.

Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.

Da GOAT

11-08-2007, 01:33 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Dublin

Posts: 4,308

BTW what CR vid was it

Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.

Vi-Zer0Skill

11-09-2007, 01:05 AM

#13 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 1,742

glad it's useful info guys, thx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

BTW what CR vid was it

i don't remember exactly, but i think it was a HU vid for some reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Vi-Zer0Skill

11-09-2007, 01:11 AM

#14 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 1,742

I've been thinking more about the actual size of the turn bet. I think the sizing can be optimal for your exact hand (your hand range wouldn't need to be well balanced) at limits up to 100NL. Certainly this would also be true when in a pot with a weak player at a higher limit.

But when you are facing an opponent who plays well (that's relative of course but to me that would be good 200NL/400NL regs) i think i would say a larger bet (closer to 3/4PSB) would be best. A bigger turn bet helps for building pots when we have a stronger made hand and setting up larger river bet bluffs in the same situation when we would prefer more fold equity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Chopper

11-09-2007, 02:29 AM

#15 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Vi, i play lower, but i do like to bet here. just because the flush hit doesnt mean our villain hit it. besides, i bet my draws, so, why would i stop when i complete? the old "bet flop, check turn when it hits, slam river" like doesnt work as frequently, for me, as just betting 3 streets.

so, for me, it seems i keep betting to balance myself out whether its a draw or i am protecting against the draw.

my question is sizing. you are recommending 1/3 to 1/2? so, around $25-30 here? why not keep it what you always bet in this situation? if i am always betting 3/4, shouldnt i continue to bet 3/4? wouldnt it be obvious when i come in soft that something is up?

or, in this situation, are you using more of a blocking technique to force him to call or raise? meaning, if you throw out a $50 bet does he call more often than if you threw out $25 (where he would be more inclined to raise out of greed)? obv, the latter is cheaper when we are beat.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Chopper

11-09-2007, 03:19 AM

#16 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

quickie that just happened. i tried betting smaller, and it may have the same effect, at my level...thereby saving me money when they hit it.

but, this also exemplifies the fact they may not have hit it, either. in fact, they may be more inclined to think you hit it after betting the draw, being that it looks like you just dropped into "value mode."

Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Absolute-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($19.08)
CO ($54.03)
Button ($7.80)
SB ($29.57)
Hero ($31.60)
UTG ($11.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q

, K

.
1 fold, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.85) 9

, 3

, Q

(4 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1, CO folds, Button calls $1.

Turn: ($3.10) 5

(3 players)
Hero bets $1.5, Button folds.

Final Pot: $3.10

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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