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runen
Old 01-19-2005, 09:56 AM     Post subject: TT hand ranking #1 (permalink)  

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runen
Hi all.

I am just curious. In the hand ranking strategy essays TT is ranked as 6th best hand. Seems to me it happens all the time that an overcard is flopped rendering your hand close to useless. According to your pairs and overcards chart, this happens 69% of the time.

So why is it this hand is ranked so high and what is the proper play when you get it?

Thanks in advance,
Rune
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desucof
Old 01-19-2005, 10:21 AM #2 (permalink)  

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desucof
i'd like a response to this question 2 .... it's a particular ( flaw ) pet peeve of my game that i don't like or just don't feel confident with a pocket pair thats not pictures etc. I always raise with sat 88 - TT but still nvr confident on flop unless all under cards.

Played a game with friends last night and this was discussed -- alot of differences of opinion split between the

1. limp in startegy hoping to hit trips, then ur hand is a monster

2. raise get the stragglers out and c what on flop then bet. my only problem with this strategy is waisting alot of money pre-flop when the huge % of a an overcard on flop ....

any opinions welcomed
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runen
Old 01-19-2005, 10:38 AM #3 (permalink)  

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runen
That's exactly what I have experienced... I don't particularly like to raise preflop with TT since the money (often) is wasted if an overcard flops.
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desucof
Old 01-19-2005, 10:46 AM #4 (permalink)  

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desucof
thats one side of the coin alright but last night for instance i did get TT.

raised preflop ... everyone folds preflop bar 1 person.

flop all lower nots no pair and no real str8 draw so i bet 5xBB and he folds stating exactly the reason. he said "you got a pocket pair and i aint drawin agaisnt that" ... thin khe had K J or something.

obviously this is an ideal flop for TT but even if an overcard comes i would still bet to represent as u cant just check that. u dont have to assume ur beat cos of 1 overcard ... so in above flop even if Q or A came and i bet he probly thinks i had 1 of those etc
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a500lbgorilla
Old 01-19-2005, 05:04 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Just becuase a hand *could* beat you doesn't mean someone has it. If the flop is KJ5 and your opponent has AJ and you bet, it's a hard call for them.

When you play TT, you've got to play it aggressively and expect your opponents to shy away from a showdown.

That's true for a lot of hands in poker. You can't just camp for a great pair and expect to be a winning player at all stakes.

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ngericl
Old 01-19-2005, 05:52 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I was thinking about TT just the other day. I agree with 'rilla. Yes, there's a 69% (69... *drool*) of an overcard on the flop. Let's say you bet 3-5xBB pre-flop and go heads-up. Just like the percentages say, an overard shows up. The guy may have 2 overcards and he may have gotten his pair, but there're are 2 other overcards which he doesn't have. It's just as likely he didn't get his pair. In fact, it's less likely he got his pair. He's got 6 outs to get a pair, while there're are 8 other overcards left unaccounted for. Is that correct? I'd bet the pot to see exactly where I stand.
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ArcticKnight
Old 01-20-2005, 05:53 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Hi Folks

We all seem to have hands that we feel are "overated."

For me (despite the percentages) I HATE pocket 10s. I'll limp in most times (in NL) and hope for trips.

I would prefer in most cases to play a hand like KJs or AKs (even though I think KJs is a 46/54 underdog against tens).

For me, I think the following explains why I have the hang-up. ...

When I have KJs, I have nothing without a favourable flop. A couple of suited cards, a Q,10, or wishfully a KK, JJ, KJ, , etc. Kx.
If I don't get something that looks good, I can lay KJ down - hey, it's only KJ right?? I missed the flop - toss em.

But those damn 10s. My tens are a darn good hand on their own. Heck, let's not even have a flop (lol).

So, on the flop, I'm looking for ... well, something with a 10. I don't want to see KQ3, AJ7, AQ4, J55 and on and on.

Underpairs don't make me feel any better either. And neither does 5h6h8d, or 4h5d7h. Sure, there are no overcards, but now I am worried about straights, flushes, and even pocket babies (44, 55 etc) that hit trips.
Forget worried, I'm paranoid now.

The problem is I just don't want to lay those 10s down. I can't improve them easy , I can't lay them down easy, and just about every flop scares me . That's why I don't like them.

(I know the above is not rational, but I can't help getting bad vibes off 10s).
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aokrongly
Old 01-20-2005, 07:25 PM     Post subject: ... #8 (permalink)  
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JeffreyGB
Old 01-31-2005, 05:47 AM #9 (permalink)  
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TT holds up well short-handed. As mentioned above, just because a hand could beat you doesn't mean someone has it. One over coming doesn't mean it's a card that helps your opponent. The problem comes when a lot of players see the flop - it doesn't hold up near as well here if you don't hit trips. So the solution I'd go for is raising big preflop. This is why some people say play it like AA. The pot may not be as big as if everyone had stayed in, but you're probably the favorite to win it and it's got some size to it after your raise.

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Greedo017
Old 02-01-2005, 04:55 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 10-10 is just above where i'd be limping and hoping for a set. 10-10, raise preflop 3x or whatever, see the flop and bet the pot. Obviously if the flop comes akq and someone bets the pot, fold, but if its all unders then you really only have to worry about a set and you're home free.
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-01-2005, 05:33 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 I treat TT like AA until the flop hits. If you've got all unders you've got a pretty good hand, if you hit your set you have got a great pay off coming from AA, and if you are in position you can take advantage of great folding equity.


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Eric
Old 02-01-2005, 05:41 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 TT is one of the best hands you can get but you're right, it is also one of the most difficult hands to play. When an over comes you are put in a tough spot.
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bigred
Old 02-01-2005, 06:24 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 I limp with TT in early and play it aggressively with position and stack.

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ngericl
Old 02-01-2005, 07:31 AM #14 (permalink)  
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bigred
Old 02-01-2005, 01:39 PM #15 (permalink)  
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ngericl
Old 02-02-2005, 03:59 AM #16 (permalink)  
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You couldn't post the best Sung Hi Lee pix, unless you wanna get banned. It'd might be worth it, though.
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koolmoe
Old 02-02-2005, 04:10 AM     Post subject: Re: TT hand ranking #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runen
Hi all.

I am just curious. In the hand ranking strategy essays TT is ranked as 6th best hand. Seems to me it happens all the time that an overcard is flopped rendering your hand close to useless. According to your pairs and overcards chart, this happens 69% of the time.

So why is it this hand is ranked so high and what is the proper play when you get it?

Thanks in advance,
Rune
TT is a made hand with very little chance of an overpair. If you raise it preflop, you have a better chance to isolate, most likely against two big cards which will only spike a pair on the flop about 1/3 of the time. A flop with one overcard will be a pretty good flop for you. A flop with a paired overcard is even better. Just play it more aggressively, and you'll win more than you lose.

If you can't get HU with TT, it's not much better than a small pair, which is why limping with it sucks. You lose a ton of it's value by limping. This is the reason you need to raise TT harder than you would AA. AA can stand more action than TT.
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r8ed
Old 03-09-2005, 05:08 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by runen
Hi all.

I am just curious. In the hand ranking strategy essays TT is ranked as 6th best hand. Seems to me it happens all the time that an overcard is flopped rendering your hand close to useless. According to your pairs and overcards chart, this happens 69% of the time.

So why is it this hand is ranked so high and what is the proper play when you get it?

Thanks in advance,
Rune
TT is a made hand with very little chance of an overpair. If you raise it preflop, you have a better chance to isolate, most likely against two big cards which will only spike a pair on the flop about 1/3 of the time. A flop with one overcard will be a pretty good flop for you. A flop with a paired overcard is even better. Just play it more aggressively, and you'll win more than you lose.

If you can't get HU with TT, it's not much better than a small pair, which is why limping with it sucks. You lose a ton of it's value by limping. This is the reason you need to raise TT harder than you would AA. AA can stand more action than TT.
Good points. What about lower pocket pairs? Do you raise preflop with those? You will isolate and if you hit trips, you will take down a nice pot usually.
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