www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

Trying to be more aggressive....getting hammered

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

AlexAllen02

12-11-2006, 10:25 PM Post subject: Trying to be more aggressive....getting hammered

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posts: 47

I am trying to open up my game more lately and am not feeling good about it at all right now. My old style of play was pretty solid and made consistent money for me. Not much re-raising, pretty much showing down solid hands.
I've always felt like I probably get bluffed off of some good hands, but usually fold to aggression. Some people on here make calls that I never would have.

Here are two hands that have me steaming from this last hour. Feel free to bust them up and tell me how dumb they were.

I would not have usually called this, but I couldn't see him calling the pf raise and then leading the flop with any J in his hand. Dumb? A flop raise would have probably been good.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($35.25)
Hero ($45)
UTG+1 ($30.85)
MP1 ($38.50)
MP2 ($105.85)
MP3 ($69.10)
CO ($49.25)
Button ($40.85)
SB ($51.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

, A

.
Hero raises to $2, 7 folds, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) A

, Q

, T

(2 players)
BB bets $2, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($8.25) K

(2 players)
BB bets $31.25 (All-In), Hero calls $31.25.

River: ($70.75) 3

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $70.75

Is this a standard play? In the past I think I used to give the opponent credit for more than most people on this site usually recommend.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($47)
UTG+1 ($189.50)
MP1 ($67)
MP2 ($26.05)
CO ($51.55)
Button ($25.15)
SB ($137.95)
BB ($85.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

, K

.
Hero raises to $2, 6 folds, BB raises to $5, Hero raises to $12, BB raises to $74.5, Hero calls $35 (All-In).

Flop: ($121.75) 7

, 2

, T

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($121.75) 9

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($121.75) Q

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $121.75

I think I'm just not used to losing that much, but I realize that my winrate in the past may be less than it could be. I'll post some more hands as I find them.[/i]

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

mixchange

12-11-2006, 11:12 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 1,665

I don't see that much wrong with the second hand (that is if you lost) because really the only hand beating you is AA -- however if the guy was very tight, I would consider folding after being re-raised all in after you re-raised...but even then its hard to lay down kings. Against loose player its an easy call, "normal" player it's a harder call. The chance of one player getting AA and the other KK is low but its happened to everyone. You have the second best possible hand, so I think over 50% of the time you likely have the best hand. If he has Aces, oh well. If he had anything else but drew out, that's just part of the game.

The first hand I don't like because you are calling an all in with two pair and a gutshot on a potentially poison pill card. The turn is probably a poison pill giving him a straight, and you the second best hand. I don't see how anyone bluffs here, because if you dno't have a jack the only person calling the all in (theoretically) should be someone with a jack. Bad pot odds to risk your whole stack for $8.25

I think the big question on hand #1 is, what reads did you have on this player? What had they been calling raises with? If you don't have a good read, you fold here. Maybe it's a donk bluff, but I don't see why its worth the risk. Fold and you're down $4, call and you are wrong and there goes $31.25 more.

The hands you posted here have nothing to do with aggression. The first hand the villian is the aggressor, and IMO if you are playing an aggressive style it's important to fold when others show very strong aggression. Being an aggressive player you pick up a lot of hands you normally "shouldn't" and your opponents will wait till they hit their hand, and then make you pay. If you are going to be aggressive, you have to be sensitive to when the other players play back. You can't win every hand.

I should note that I'm a crap cash player, so maybe my post is worth nothing.

giallorosso

12-12-2006, 09:31 AM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 21

Just on hand 1:
I defenitly think you should rise (3 bet) on the flop then if villains rerises you can think about a fold. You have TPTK and there is a flush draw on the board. As you played it is a clear fold. Even to a bluff if you are not more than 50% that he is bluffinf folding is +Ev decision

XTR1000

12-12-2006, 01:43 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2006

Location: surfing in a room

Posts: 2,188

XTR1000 is an unknown quantity at this point

#1:
i dont like calling his bet, you should raise. unless he´s a nit, BB could have bn calling your pf raise with a lot of drawing hands and there are two strong draws out there, dont let him draw cheaply. TPTK is good here most of the times, raise him and consider calling if he fights back.

#2:
fine. be happy, you got AI with your kings. if he´s holding AA, so be it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

xtr stand for exotic tranny retards

yo

bode

12-12-2006, 02:38 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: slow motion

Posts: 4,270

bode is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by XTR1000

#1: ...
TPTK is good here most of the times, raise him and consider calling if he fights back.

this is bad advice. TPTK is not a good hand at all on a AQT double suited board. 2 pair isnt that strong of a hand here.

hand 1: fold. period. this isnt worth it. you say you cant see villain calling your pf raise with a J? why? JJ? AJ, KJ, maybe even QJ depending on the villain.

hand 2: if he is a complete nit, i might consider folding to the push, but thats not likely.

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

andy-akb

12-12-2006, 03:27 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

1) AJ KJ QJ TJ JJ and random clubs all seem like possibilities to me on the flop, again, you need to post reads on your opponents or at least stats when you post hands, that can change so much. As played Im torn about raising the flop because without reads I really dont know if a worse ace is every calling and it shouldnt be tough to tell when his draw fills, they are all pretty obvious so I dont think we need much protection. I dont mind a flop call, but you have to fold to that huge bet on the turn, you only beat a bluff and your odds are terrible.

2) I typically never 4bet PF without a read because I think against most it is more profitable to see a flop and I dont really 4bet bluff so it would be transparent to a semi-aware opponent what I have. As played if you are 4betting you need to make it more than $12, Id make it more like $20ish probably and obviously call the push.

Senator7

12-12-2006, 03:34 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2006

Posts: 19

Playing aggressive doesn't mean playing any two cards you're dealt. Aggressive simply means raising or folding instead of checking and calling. Its okay to be super-tight pre-flop. You're probably not going to make as much money as you would opening up a bit, but you'll still do just fine. This is especially true online where most of your opponents will play any two cards, aren't smart enough to fold, and will call your monster all the way to showdown. Simply raise when you think you've got the best of it and fold when you don't. Its a simple, but time tested method to make money in poker.

I would say that your problem is courage, not aggressiveness. When you only showdown solid hands, two things are happening:

1. Your opponents (assuming decent skill) aren't going to give you a lot of action when you do raise unless they've got a great draw.
2. Your playing style basically means you have to get the cards to win. Great poker players don't need to cards to bust up a table.

Hope this helps and best of luck.

Senator 7

"I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell." - Legendary music producer, Bruce Dickinson

biondino

12-12-2006, 04:00 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

Seantor's right - we'll ignore the fact that neither of these hands are played unusually aggressively (the first hand is totally passive post-flop) and the fact that with AKs and KK how the hell else are you going to play the hands, and we'll concentrate on what aggression means.

It means being the person to force the other person to make decisions about their stack. It is asking questions of them that they can only answer if they have good cards or big balls. It is nesuring they never get free cards or good odds when they're drawing; it's re-raising when they claim to have a hand to see whether they're really prepared to take it all the way. It can involve bluffing, but you can't just make raises and re-raises and expect to make players fold; you need to target players accurately, identify weakness, take advantage of position.

You also need to be able to fold. Since aggression will usually accompany non-nut hands, you need to be prepared to lay down, after investing a sizeable amount of chips, when their response is to fire back hard.

sejje

12-12-2006, 10:24 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 883

Quote:

Originally Posted by XTR1000

2 strong draws? I see a flush draw, and there's no other strong draw.

I call that bet and fold the turn. AK sucks pretty hard on that board, especially to that turn bet.

Hand 2 is fine, we don't need the AA vs KK discussion. Don't ever think about folding kings preflop until you're playing mid-stakes or maybe if your HUD shows him 4/1 after a few thousand hands.

AlexAllen02

12-13-2006, 03:20 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posts: 47

I hear what you guys are saying about these hands not really being aggressive. I have been trying to get more aggressive lately with reraises, raising more in position, etc, but these hands don't show that.
What I am talking about with these is more along the lines of "getting some balls".
The first hand has been universally shot down for good reason. I just couldn't figure out at the time why he would lead out with what turned out to be AJ but I likely could have made him fold with a good raise there. I was really thinking he was probably AQ or AT at that point and then when I saw the K I thought I had him beat. In retrospect, a set or in this case the straight was more possible than I gave it credit for. I just was in this funk where I thought everyone was trying to push me off hands and had to see it I guess. Dumb.
Everyone seems to think the 2nd is ok. I'll search for more of these threads because I'm sure they are out there, but I had stopped calling these in the past because I found that most of the experiences I had, I lost. I started again, but have lost 3 buy-ins in a week on this exact hand and not won once.
Try to indulge me for a second:
Assume near or over 100bb stacks.
If I raise, get reraised, I 3 bet, and he pushes this seems to always be AA.
If he raises, I reraise, he pushes, this also always seems to be AA.
At the very least I think it is AA well over half the time.
Against someone with a smaller stack I don't think twice, because TT+ and AK or worse are common, I just don't see fellow big stacks making that play with less than AA or possibly KK for the chop.
Is the thinking behind it that once you have the money of the raises and reraises in the pot that calling the push actually makes it so you only have to win much less than half to make it worthwhile? That I could maybe understand, I just don't buy that you can't put that person on the only hand that beats you, because I think most of the time they have it rather than anything else.

AlexAllen02

12-13-2006, 08:42 PM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posts: 47

I read enough posts on AA KK to know there isn't much of a consensus. I do still think that having a lot of dead money in the pot should tip your decision to a call though.

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:28 AM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

Beginners Circle

Trying to be more aggressive....getting hammered

Play for FREE and practice your game at...