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Trouble adjusting to B&M Nl game

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JJDylan

12-13-2005, 07:55 AM Post subject: Trouble adjusting to B&M Nl game

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: Buffalo, NY

Posts: 211

earlier this week i made a trip to my local B&M and for the first time tried out the 1/2 NL game they have and i'll be honest, i felt like i was better than most of the players, but i couldnt adjust to the game. I just wanted to get some thoughts on how you guys would vary your play to a game like this...

1/2NL... max buyin was $100 (which sucks because im used to 100BB stacks when i play online and home games). Secondly the normal raises were a minimum of 6x the BB I was having a really hard time figuring this part of the game out...almost every pot was raised like above and depending on how many people saw the flop continuation bets were around $30 or so. I was having a really hard time adjusting to the fact that 1/4 of my stack might have to go into the pot just to see a turn card. Or if i was the raiser...how agressive do i stay with my missed AK when anything less than these bets wont do anything but encourage everyone to call.

Ive never really played a game where ive had so little room to maneuver with as far as stack size compared to the action. I definitley got the impression that i could crush the game if i could double up once or twice and have some chips to work with. But i found myself lost on the best way to get there.

Do you gamble a bit and see a few flops? maybe flopping a monster with QJ or T9? or sit back and wait for something like AA or KK and push it hard?

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12-13-2005, 08:23 AM

#2 (permalink)

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SteveO

12-13-2005, 11:34 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Posts: 755

That is typical of AC 1/2 NL games BUT the max buy-in is $300.00 which makes a big difference unless you play in the Sands room where they have a $150.00 buy-in.

$100 buy in is not good in the game you describe whre PF raise in multi-way pots is $10-15 since you are quickly committing all of your chips to the pot. So limit yourself to only those big hands where you don't mind getting committed to the pot. Also, if it is fairly passive and you are getting multi-way action splash around with the sooted A and such.

Another thing to watch out for is try to get in the game early. If you show up late night you are likley going to be facing some huge stacks who will just gobble you up.

Last time I played B&M we got up early to play before we went home. At 10AM the game was still running from the night before. There were 2 stacks with $2000 + in the game. I played Black Jack instead of getting involved in that mess.

Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!

BankItDrew

12-13-2005, 06:57 PM

#4 (permalink)

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BankItDrew will become famous soon enough

I played a 100NL game at Niagara on Saturday night and splashed around with Axs and flopped the nut flush. Lots of betting and raisers and me slow playing and more betting and me calling and me raking and me laughing inside..

Ripptyde's suggestion is a really good one as it allows those of you who are limited in live games and may be intimidated by the old fart with stacks. Just play your game, pretend you're online. If the table is loose, play tight. If the table is tight, play loose.

I hadn't played a hand in over an hour and decided to get into the mix on the button. J5 suited. 5xbb. 3 callers. Ace on the flop. I've never seen two people check so quickly in my life, before I knew it, the play was on me. 2/3 bet. fold fold take down. $23 profit. >> Pays for 2 hours of not playing a single hand. ($5/3o min. rake)

Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!

Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?

Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?

Fnord

12-13-2005, 07:07 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

If the table is loose, play tight. If the table is tight, play loose.

Fnord: I'll take bad poker advice cliches for 100 Alex.
Alex: I'm sorry but Payette already cleaned that catagory out.
Fnord: How about I give my answer in the form of a question?
Alex: Well since you put it that way....
Fnord: How does our opponents pre-flop looseness have anything to do with our tightness?
Fnord: Why is our opponent's aggression and post-flop skill more important when picking hands pre-flop?
Fnord: What do making loose players fold and swimming upstream have in common?
Fnord: If it wasn't in black and white, how many times would you hit it?
Alex: I'd definatly hit it in the form of a question!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

BankItDrew

12-13-2005, 07:10 PM

#6 (permalink)

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smartass

Rondavu

12-13-2005, 07:41 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

What is do you see why?

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

siknd

12-13-2005, 07:51 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 359

its an excellent point by fnord. ppl are always frustrated when they cant make the fish fold, and they suffer a suckout. i think its great. sklansky points out that losing a correctly playd hand is all part of your net gain.

the last thing you want a fish to do is fold. i definitely loosen my starting hand requirements against weaker players. i WANT to get into hands with them because i know i can out-play them. its a continuous series of implied odds situations.

'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '

RiverMonkey

12-13-2005, 09:21 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Ok, this post turned out much longer than I intended, but I wanted to share what I've learned about small stakes B&M NL over the last 6 months.

I play in a B&M $1/2 NL game with a $200 max buy-in relatively often. It used to be $100, but they raised it to $200. I wouldn't play the game until they raised it to $200; I could make more money playing $10/20 LHE. But now, with the $200 buy-in, not only is there more dead money on the table, but there's more room to manouver, my hourly rate has gone way up, and my variance has gone way down compared to the middle-stakes LHE games I've played in. The other big added benefit over the middle stakes LHE games is game selection. There are routinely at least 5 to 10 tables to choose from for SSNL, whereas for middle stake LHE you often have to choose between playing in a tough game or not play at all. I've played the $3-6 NL blind structure games too, but there aren't as many clueless players, and quite often the pots get just as big in the $1/2 game. Also, due to gaming regulations even though the game in "NL", there is a maximum $500 bet/raise size. I haven't seen it factor into the $1/2 game, but I've seen it in the $3/6 game. NL with a limit .. how f'ed is that!

As a whole the players in these small buy-in, low-blind NL game are weak, very weak! They are showing up to the casino in droves; thank you WPT and online poker!!! The trick is to figure out which ones they are, what their particular weaknesses are and prey on them with the right counter strategies. Run over the weak tighties and trap or re-steal against the over-aggressives. I'm still amazed at how str8 forward so many of the players play. If they are betting they have a hand, if they are betting strong, they have a strong hand. One night I had a guy sit there for 3 hours on a $100 stack. He'd either fold 90% of the time, or raise all-in when there was about $6 in the pot before the flop; it was truly idiotic. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how to play against a fool like that.

Tells/reads and player profiling are big parts of this game for me. Keep your eyes and EARS open. The amount of information these players are giving away during and in between hands is truley unbelievable. You have to be able to figure out when and against whom you need an actual hand and when you don't. I'm tired of the term "change gears" because half the time, the people using it just heard Mike Sexton talk about it on the WPT. Pros do it primarlily to throw off aware opponents. In these fish-fest games you 'change gears' for a different reason than our WPT friends; you do it based on who you are in the pot with. Although deception against semi-ware to aware players sometimes factors into these games, its more about preying on weak players and avoiding the more solid ones. You have to be good at figuring out who has a clue and who doesn't. I find this much easier live than online.

Yes, pre-flop raises are routinely between 5 and 10BBs in this game. Because I have an edge over most of my opponents post-flop, I'll play a wide range of hands (even to a raise), but I'll be much more selective when a player that I've pegged as solid opens the pot for a raise ahead of me. I stay clear of most potentially dominated hands, but will play many sneaky, speculative hands even to a raise. I vary how I open the pot with strong hands based on the table etc. I hate not getting action on my big hands! At active tables, I'll often limp re-raise. Although I'm not a big fan of it, I do find that I often limp-fold from early position too. That's right the most under-used play in poker, the ol' limp fold!! It's only $2 and the upside implied odds are usually worth it. The number of cheap flops your opponents let you see make it worth it. I take down some huge pots with crazy cards, which of course tends to gets me action when I have solid cards.

Position and post flop-play skillz are HUGE in this game. The ability to lay down TPTK in the RIGHT spots is also a money earner. In late position, I'm raising the pot with any two cards when I see a bunch of weak limpers in before me, or if there a number of players that might be hip to my plan, I'll limp along with any two cards and splash around. The number of times I steal a moderate size pot still amazes me. I love it when I hear, "you hit a set, I fold my top pair".

Sets and disguised str8s are huge money makers; recognizing good implieds odds situations is really what this game is all about. Those situations come in many flavours, learn to recognize them; they don't all involve hitting a huge hand. In goes the other way too; reverse implied odds situations are killer in NL if you don't recognize them often enough.My last piece of advice; take extra time when you are confronted with a big decision where you have many chips on the line. You can flush many hours of solid poker down the drain with one bad decision.

JJDylan

12-15-2005, 03:10 AM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: Buffalo, NY

Posts: 211

thanks for the replys guys...i guess i'll just have to play the game some more to adjust to the type of play. My main problem was that i couldnt play my normal game of opening a lot of pots for raises with weaker hands and relying on my postflop play to take down the pots. I guess my biggest mistake was not realizing the possibilites i was pasing up when there was a raise and 3 loose calls in front of me...i was usually folding in spots where i could sneak in and possibly flop a monster. Anyways, i think im heading back up there tomorrow, we'll see how it goes!

harmisajedi

12-15-2005, 03:27 AM Post subject: Re: Trouble adjusting to B&M Nl game

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: sf bay

Posts: 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJDylan

Ive never really played a game where ive had so little room to maneuver with as far as stack size compared to the action. I definitley got the impression that i could crush the game if i could double up once or twice and have some chips to work with. But i found myself lost on the best way to get there.

making the move to live play is nerve-wrecking, especially when it comes to minimal ($100-200) buy-ins. on one hand, @ least half the table will have absolutely no idea of pot odds or postflop play, allowing you to crush them w/ strong drawing hands. on the other, @ least half the table will have absolutely no idea of pot odds or postflop play & chase ridiculous draws, hitting their gutshot or two-outer set on the river. nerve-wrecking.

my own experience w/ tourist-traps around the bay has tought me the following: always bring a minimum of 3 buy-ins. if @ any point in time your stack goes below the max buy-in, rebuy. when you make your hand, people will pay you off. be as patient as patient can be--turn into the rock of all motherfreaking rocks--the gibraltar to end all gibraltars--until you build your stack to a decent (150-200xbb) level, & then start playing the game as it's supposed to be played; based on reads/position, etc.

you have to keep in mind that generally speaking, the level of live play @ small buy-ins tends to be dismal, so playing text-book ta might be the best way to run over a table anyway.

i bet 2 dolla on my flush draw

Fnord

12-15-2005, 03:53 AM

#12 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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W00t I got a live one at the table now... I love pulling down 100bb pots with TPTK...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Krieg1984

12-16-2005, 01:02 AM

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 93

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

W00t I got a live one at the table now... I love pulling down 100bb pots with TPTK...

Lukie: "Yo Fnord I was playing omaha earlier"
Lukie: "I got dealt quads"
Lukie: "but everyone folded to my raise "
Lukie: "I was going to pwn everyone"
Fnord: "Gotta slowplay them big hands man..."

zenbitz

12-16-2005, 06:19 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 2,911

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

If the table is loose, play tight. If the table is tight, play loose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Fnord: I'll take bad poker advice cliches for 100 Alex.

Excessivly harsh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Fnord: How does our opponents pre-flop looseness have anything to do with our tightness?

Kicker strength. If opps are loose and you play A8 - where do you stand when a A falls? If you play AJ+... now you know. Plus, you should not be raising/reraising loose players with crap, since they will call and your never get the blinds (not the the blinds are worth squat in a 1/2 200 BB game.

The reverse is important too - if opps are TIGHT - what do they have? When the A *doesn't* fall, you PP is g00t. Plus, you can steal their blinds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Fnord: Why is our opponent's aggression and post-flop skill more important when picking hands pre-flop?

Ahh... now you begin to make sense. What you are saying is "opponents tightness/looseness IS NOT THE ONLY FACTOR in determining what hands to play pre-flop!" Play Phil Ivey different from Fishmaster McGee even though they are both playing 55% of flops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Fnord: What do making loose players fold and swimming upstream have in common?

Fish do both!

Fnord

12-16-2005, 06:45 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zenbitz

In general, the more passive your opponents, the more hands that are playable because you will be allowed to see more cards for a lower price and take free stabs at inducing folds. More aggressive play requires you to make a strong hand faster, but the reward is greater as you will get paid off more often.

If every pot is 10 way, there is a big difference in playability of hands depending on how much of the money is going in pre-flop and on the flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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