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Tried to mix it up with pocket 9's. Comments

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Awaji E

05-16-2006, 12:32 AM Post subject: Tried to mix it up with pocket 9's. Comments

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Japan

Posts: 61

I'd normally just limp and hunt for a set, but thought I'd try this for a change.

Game #1474074942 - (blinds $0.05/$0.10) No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2006/05/15-01:24:51.6 (CST)
Table "Pololem" (real money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: real fishy ($17.34 in chips)
Seat 2: blake9917 ($11.80 in chips)
Seat 3: kicktrout ($2.38 in chips)
Seat 4: RUUBY ($11.55 in chips)
Seat 5: AugieD ($8.45 in chips)
Seat 6: polarnper ($3.67 in chips)
Seat 7: Awaji E ($13.06 in chips)
Seat 8: mikenj973 ($15.38 in chips)
Seat 9: JERRYM6628 ($3.95 in chips)
Seat 10: Lukie55 ($7.00 in chips)
kicktrout: Post Small Blind ($0.05)
RUUBY : Post Big Blind ($0.10)
Dealing...
Dealt to Awaji E [ 9s ]
Dealt to Awaji E [ 9d ]
AugieD : Call ($0.10)
polarnper: Call ($0.10)
Awaji E : Raise ($0.45)
mikenj973: Fold
JERRYM6628: Fold
Lukie55 : Fold
real fishy: Call ($0.45)
blake9917: Call ($0.45)
kicktrout: Fold
RUUBY : Fold
AugieD : Fold
polarnper: Call ($0.35)
*** FLOP *** : [ Jh 6s As ]
polarnper: Check
Awaji E : Bet ($0.80)
real fishy: Fold
blake9917: Raise ($4)
polarnper: Fold
Awaji E : Fold
blake9917: Winner -- doesn't show cards

I'd only been at this table for about 2 orbits, and been pretty quiet, no reason for blake to assume I'm c-betting on a missed flop.

My reasoning is that I'd often play a hand like AK like this, where I'll raise pre-flop, hit my hand, bet the flop, and everyone folds. If that happens, then it really doesn't matter what I had, so I thought I'd try it with a different holding. But in hindsight I realize this play cost me 12 BB, whereas standard set-hunting would have cost me 1 BB.

Is my initial reasoning wrong-headed? Any comments on my thinking/playing welcome.

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andy-akb

05-16-2006, 12:55 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

What is your standard pf raise? Id make it atleast $0.50 here, maybe up to $.75. On the flop there is $1.80 in the pot, and 3 others in it with you. The flop brings two overs and a flush draw, this is not a good flop to cbet, especially in a multiway pot. If you are going to cbet, you need to make it more than your bet [which was less than half the pot], Id say between 2/3 and 3/4, but I still dont think you should be betting here OOP. I check/fold this flop, in position you can play it a little more aggressively though.

Awaji E

05-16-2006, 01:46 AM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Japan

Posts: 61

My standard pf raise is 4-5bb, I don't vary it on hand strength, so I don't think I'm giving away much info yet.

I agree that, if I bet on the flop, I should have bet more.

You mentioned it's a bad flop to cbet. If I had AK, would a 3/4 pot cbet still be a mistake? I still don't entirely understand when and when-not to c-bet.

jackvance

05-16-2006, 01:59 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

- Don't c-bet when there are more than 2 people besides yourself
- If there are one-two people, you need some sort of read that they aren't likely to call with a weak hand
- c-bet 2/3-3/4 pot, the same as if you would have a made hand
- things to take into consideration when you c-bet: you want to have some outs to a good hand, and a low likelyhood that your opponents have something they want to hold on to.

Adds to your likelyhood to c-bet:
- you have overs (AK on rag flop like 962)
- you have a draw (so you semi-bluf)
- you have reason to believe your opp missed the flop
- you haven't c-bet in a while (so you have more credibility now)

Detracts from your likelyhood to c-bet:
- flop has possible draws (like here)
- many over to your hand (like here)
- a calling station is in the hand
- you've bet the flop a couple times recently already without showing your hand, so people might be becoming wary.

This should get you started

And I took down so many pots with cbets today, I swear it was half my profit.

jyms

05-16-2006, 02:00 AM

#5 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,836

The problem I think is that in a three way pot, odds are that someone has hit the flop. C-betting may backfire if someone hit trips, A and kicker for two pair or even both could call and give each other odds to chase. Any KT, QT, KQ, spade suited has the odds to chase. AJ, AK, AQ, JJ has you dominated and probably will call. If you are going to semi-bluff, bet the pot or 3/4 pot. Then if they call you know your beat. Just my opinion, but i'm just learning. someone will tell you where i'm wrong.

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andy-akb

05-16-2006, 02:00 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awaji E

My standard pf raise is 4-5bb, I don't vary it on hand strength, so I don't think I'm giving away much info yet.

Im not saying to vary it based on hand strength, but you have two callers ahead of you so you should raise more. The standard "rule" is 4xBB raise +1BB for every limper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awaji E

I agree that, if I bet on the flop, I should have bet more.

You mentioned it's a bad flop to cbet. If I had AK, would a 3/4 pot cbet still be a mistake? I still don't entirely understand when and when-not to c-bet.

While it is techincally a cbet because you are continuing your actionfrom the previous street, you actually hit the flop and there are some draws there so you would want to bet to protect your hand.

TLR

05-16-2006, 07:49 AM

#7 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 5,007

TLR is an unknown quantity at this point

From EP I dont think raising pocket 9's is a good move, I would rather limp

Greedo017

05-16-2006, 09:33 AM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot

Posts: 1,461

i like this hand if you bet harder on the flop.

i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch

andy-akb

05-16-2006, 11:10 AM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

i like this hand if you bet harder on the flop.

In a multiway pot with this flop texture do you really think he should be betting at all?

yorib

05-16-2006, 12:36 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Oak Park, IL

Posts: 281

I don't see anything wrong with opening at 4xBB with 99. I've done it from time to time myself. I'm probably 50/50 between betting and checking on the flop. It's a horrible flop because someone has an A. If I had a better hand (TT/QQ/KK) I'd have played it exactly the same. (Maybe up the bet to $1.20 instead, but the end result would be the same, except this cost you less money).

I always think of a c-bet as when I have AK and miss the flop. With 99 you have "something". If everyone folds 50% of the time, you've made the right decision (betting .8).

It's also entirely possible that the button thought you're bet was weak (put you on QQ/KK) and that everyone else had folded and figured you'ld fold to a serious raise.

It does mean that you should get more action when you hit flop after raising in the future.

TLR

05-16-2006, 12:46 PM

#11 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 5,007

You have 4 poeple to the flop, most of the time someone has an A.
It is low level, they paid the preflop raise because they have an A, they are not letting it go easy

biondino

05-16-2006, 12:53 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

I am very happy with the PF raise - you're taking control, you have a good/made hand, and you can use your impetus to push drawing hands off the pot. However, you need to bet more - 60c should be the minimum with two limpers already.

You got very unlucky with the flop - it's a straightforward check/fold to be honest. With one overcard, I would probably bet here; with two and a flush draw, it's just not worth it. If everyone else then checks, great - re-evalute on the turn. But here, you can lay down knowing you played a fine hand and this time, it didn't work out for you.

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Tried to mix it up with pocket 9's. Comments

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