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Donkafelts
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10-04-2009, 03:38 PM
Post subject: TPTK wet board.
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 115
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Sorry for saying this, but literally no history, i just sat down. Curious if PF is standard and if flop is an easy fold.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (BB) ($10)
UTG ($3.20)
MP ($3.95)
CO ($10)
Button ($28.20)
SB ($23.60)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , J
2 folds, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.60, CO (poster) calls $0.50, SB calls $0.50
Since one villian posted and then checked his range is hugely wide and SB limped instead of isolating so he probably is a weak player I can get alot of value from with TP, plus his range is probably wide.
Flop: ($1.80) 10, J , 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.75, 1 fold, SB raises to $12.90, Hero folds
Total pot: $5.30 | Rake: $0.25
Folding here sucks, but i just feel like i'm up against straights and two pairs so much here. How often are villians going to be raising you with like kj here? Any range estimates are really shaky because villian is so unknown and it's hard to tell if he would limp/call alot of the hands we beat. We need like 59% equity to call so its obv. a fold, but what odds would we need to make this a call?
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JustinSKS
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 115
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Folding here does not suck, seems very standard. Like at best in this spot I think you're against a flush draw, but still an ez fold. So many turn cards you are going to hate. q's K's any diamonds, 8's. Ez fold imo. Board is sooo wet. If you are ahead(I highly doubt) It's prolly very marginal
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I fold AA preflop.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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$1 on the flop and fold to raise.Underbet with TP on these super drawy flop is good.
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Donkafelts
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 115
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
$1 on the flop and fold to raise.Underbet with TP on these super drawy flop is good.
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Why? I've been betting large on these wet boards to price out draws, why's this wrong?
And guys i know its a fold no way we have 59% equity, but like what pot odds would we start to make crying calls with here?
Main thing is i don't really know what to put a random 10nl villian on who c/c shoves here.
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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I think there's very little reason to bet the flop. This is just me but I'd c/c flop, maybe c/c safe Turn, evaluate River.
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Donkafelts
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 115
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by al yell
I think there's very little reason to bet the flop. This is just me but I'd c/c flop, maybe c/c safe Turn, evaluate River.
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Why? Flop bet seems right against any FD, straight draw, pair + draw combo. What range do you put villians on that makes c/c right?
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Donkafelts
Quote:
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Originally Posted by al yell
I think there's very little reason to bet the flop. This is just me but I'd c/c flop, maybe c/c safe Turn, evaluate River.
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Why? Flop bet seems right against any FD, straight draw, pair + draw combo. What range do you put villians on that makes c/c right? |
Wow, sry. I misread this whole scenario. After punishing the SB (&CO) from the BB I'd cbet too. Whether it's standard or w/e IDK but it certainly seems like you'd want to do it for value. Without info on Villain I'd wouldn't find it terribly difficult to fold as well.
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Donkafelts
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 115
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I want to make it clear i know its a fold, but i'm really curious what kind of range we can give to villian here. No one has mentioned how often villian does this with any hands, and that's what i'm looking for.
Also I'm curious about the suggested $1 c bet. What's the reasoning behind that aside from just "it's good"
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TheBowlBoy
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 55
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I like a bet of $1.20 or so on the flop. The problem with potting is the fact that you're out of position with a good hand on a very dangerous board. If you pot the flop and villain flats, the pot size on he turn will be ~$5.40. Any reasonable size bet at this stage is going to commit you and you're going to get towned by bet/calling from 2 pair or straights.
Check folding a brick turn will also suck because you allow draws and weaker pairs to take this away from you.
If we go $1.20 on the flop and villain flats the pot size on the turn is going to be ~$4.20. We can bet now bet/fold for two thirds pot without commiting.
On super drawy boards like this I like to bet/fold an amount on the flop and turn that gets me value from worse hands while allowing me to get away when villain wakes up with 2pair or his draw comes in. It's usually the best way to control the size of the pot, and at NL10 will generally keep villains straight forward enough which will make the hand easier to play, which is what you want in this spot, whereas checking any street will induce bets that are sometimes for value, semi-bluffs or pure bluffs.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
$1 on the flop and fold to raise.Underbet with TP on these super drawy flop is good.
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ima stab at this.
villain isnt folding a nut hand/good draw here regardless of what we bet because practically every draw he can have is awesome, villain can have loads of 2 pairs, pair+8out draw as well, and our hand has to fold to any kind of aggression so we might as well bet smaller and pwn the KJ or mp type hands.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Donkafelts
I want to make it clear i know its a fold, but i'm really curious what kind of range we can give to villian here. No one has mentioned how often villian does this with any hands, and that's what i'm looking for.
Also I'm curious about the suggested $1 c bet. What's the reasoning behind that aside from just "it's good"
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this is the reasoning behind under-bet on these super drawy flops. One of your two opponents might have you crushed or shit ton of outs with their draws. Lots of turn cards will make your life very difficult cuz all the hands with draws will likely hang around and less likely go away, and worse TP or other random shit wont pay you off nicely if you bet big on the flop. Your hand is still relatively strong, under-bet is just enough to do the job with equity. Also, c/c OOP is terrible with bad reverse implied odds and you wont know whether they bet with worse or other better stuff
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inV1NCEble
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Flaming the chatbox cause they just don't get it
Posts: 147
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Folding here sucks?
Folding a flush cause it's so obvious they have the full house sucks.
I love it when donks overshove, it saves me alot of moneyz 
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OMG POKERTRACKER IS RIGGED!
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Donkafelts
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 115
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To clarify folding doesnt suck as in its a bad play, folding sucks because we liked how pre went down as we feel villians will be calling us down with dominated hands when we make a tptk type hand, then when this happens we have to lay our hand down to some kind of spewy fish ( or whatever sb turns out to be).
One point, you said folding flushes to obvious full houses sucks. >>I would still like some range questions answered like how often are villian doing this with KJ QJ or 89?<< Hole reason i posted this hand is because when he shoved i felt like 100% he had 78 here, but when i thought about the range more i couldn't decide what it would be vs a random.
Oh and thanks a ton at people who talked on the underbet, i think manipulating pot size is one of my biggest leaks, think i understand the logic here now.
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TheBowlBoy
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 55
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I think that against an unknown, hands such as 89, QJ, and KJ are a part of villain's range though it's probably the bottom and all those hands have a decent amount of equity against you here.
The top part of his range that he is value shoving with here have you crushed imo.
One thing that has helped me recently in these tptk/scaryboard/oop type situations is trying to set a goal for the final pot size and then planning the hand out around that goal. Right when villain throws in a raise, its time to get away because you no longer have control over the final pot size and your plan is botched.
If villain in this hand had a 50bb stack you would be better off making a PSB on the flop and sticking the rest in on most turns.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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you played the hand well.
c-bet sizing will still get calls from KJ type of hands, will get calls from draws without odds, etc. Fold to the shove is super standard. He has QJ here sometimes, but his shoving range is overall too strong.
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