Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

REGISTER
Subscribe to FTR web feed
Already Registered?      Username:    Password:   Remember      Forgot Password

Poker Forum

  > 

Beginners Circle

  > 

TPGK Line Check $10nl

  
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Micro2Macro
Old 04-29-2009, 02:55 AM     Post subject: TPGK Line Check $10nl #1 (permalink)  
Micro2Macro's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
Micro2Macro is a jewel in the roughMicro2Macro is a jewel in the roughMicro2Macro is a jewel in the rough
 Unknown. I think my bet sizing is fucked?

I keep trying to milk value from weaker hands yet I just end up getting to the river too often...should I be potting flop and like 3/4 the turn to set up an easy river jam?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($0.85)
Button ($9.80)
SB ($12.30)
BB ($8.65)
Hero (UTG) ($10)
UTG+1 ($8.20)
MP1 ($2.30)
MP2 ($6)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, Q
Hero bets $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP2 (poster) calls $0.40, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.65) 7, A, 4 (3 players)
Hero bets $1, UTG+1 calls $1, 1 fold

Turn: ($3.65) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $2, UTG+1 calls $2

River: ($7.65) J (2 players)
Hero bets $3,
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
Reply With Quote

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
daven
Old 04-29-2009, 05:58 AM #2 (permalink)  
Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
daven will become famous soon enough
 c-bet sizing has more effect on pot sizes than people realise.
You need to figure out in a hand what you're trying to do - seems as though you are caught in some crazy middle ground here.

Bet flop $1 here and turn pot is $3.65, bet $1.35 and turn pot is $4.35.
Worse hands that call $1 also call $1.35, and you gotta feel like you're ahead, so bet. With a $4.35 turn pot, you can bet $3.30, then villain has only $3.05 behind.

River bet size is horrible, i don't understand. Especially after your turn bet where you priced the flush draw in with implied odds. He has $4.70 behind. If you're betting for value you can go close to $4/shove.
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
Reply With Quote
bjsaust
Old 04-29-2009, 06:22 AM #3 (permalink)  
bjsaust's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
bjsaust is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to bjsaust
Think about what hands you want calls from. Worse Ax, 88+, 7X maybe, FDs for sure. Now on the flop, think about the biggest bet that will be called by most of that range. I usually dont go too far beyond that kind of thinking on the flop. Now on the turn, look at stack sizes and pot size. Remember that pot size + (2xbet) will equal the pot on the river. If you're looking to get all in with a worse hand, you need to try to setup a bet on the turn that leaves you with a shove that he's committed to call. You know all those times starting out when you think you're beat but you just cant fold the river because somehow you got there with an amount left you cant fold? Thats what you're trying to do with him. I'll normally aim to try to have 2/3 - 3/4 psb left on the river if possible. If thats not really possible then I just try to get value from the range we spoke about on the flop.

So working through, $1.65 on the flop, I probably bet about $1.30. Remember one of the precepts of microstakes, people hate to fold, so dont be afraid of betting a decent amount. We get one caller so pot on turn is 1.65 + 1.3 + 1.3 = $4.25. Villain called .50 pf and 1.3 on the flop for 1.8, so he's left with $6.40 in his stack.

Choice now is do we get max value from his draws which he'll fold on river if we bet, or setup an unfoldable shove on the river from his weaker hands. If we bet $3 on the turn and he calls we have a $10.25 pot with $3.40 left on river which he'll call with 100% of his non-draws, it also charges a pretty good price on his draws. If the board was a little drier we might consider betting say $2.8 on the turn leaving a $9.85 pot with $3.60 behind, but it probably doesnt matter much.

My sizings a little smaller than davens, I'm probably trying a little harder to get weaker hands to call while still building a pot, whereas he's probably charging the draws a little more.
Just playing to improve.
 
Reply With Quote
bjsaust
Old 05-01-2009, 11:09 AM #4 (permalink)  
bjsaust's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
bjsaust is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to bjsaust
This never got any further replies, so I really hope people reading realise that this thread pretty much sums up how to beat microstakes games. It looks trivial, but compare M2Ms line, which is pretty standard from a lot of micro players, to the sizing/reasons from daven and myself. This is what shoots you through these stakes.
Just playing to improve.
 
Reply With Quote
siltstrider
Old 05-01-2009, 07:31 PM #5 (permalink)  
3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 85
siltstrider
Bet sizing is still something I don't understand fully. I bet different amounts in different situations, but it's always either half pot or full pot.

If I know my opponent likes to chase draws or will call me down if he caught the flop in any way shape or form, and I hit the flop, I bet the whole pot on each street. If I missed the flop, I try to cbet much less from OOP. From position, I'll bet half the pot on a dry board, and check behind on a wet board, since he'll just call me for his draw anyway.

If my opponent is one of those nut hunters who only raises TT+ and AQ+, and limp/calls pocket pairs for set value, I'll bet half the pot whether I hit the flop or not. Every time one of these guys has called or raised me, I've been beat. Otherwise they fold and my reasoning is that since they're not chasing draws, I don't have to charge them to do so. They're folding unless they flopped TPTK, except they pretty much never hit TPTK or 2pair because they tend to call only with AQ+ and 22+.

It feels like my thinking is more about cbetting and trying to get them to fold instead of trying to get them to call, though. I know I want to bet an amount that my opponent will call with weaker hands, but I'm still not sure how to figure out what that is. It seems that at the micros, the player types are black and white. Either your opponent is going to call you down with bottom pair/draws unless you massively overbet the pot (and even then...) or he will fold without something that crushes (in which cases it doesn't matter how much I bet because he's always folding).
Reply With Quote
scotladd
Old 05-01-2009, 07:54 PM #6 (permalink)  
scotladd's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 68
scotladd
The stuff I read on playing TPTK and TPGK suggest 60% of the pot as a minimum. Since then, most people I have talked to suggest 67% as a minimum, Jyms seems to suggest 85-90% as a minimum.

Your flop bet was 60%, turn was 54% and river was 39%.

Now, granted I am quite amateur myself, but those bets seem quite undersized, I would have called, especially if I had a T+ flush draw. With a strong hand like that, everything I have been studying says more is better.

Of course, I personally still need some work in the bet-sizing department, so I would take this post with a grain of salt. Just thought I would offer my two chips
 
Reply With Quote
bjsaust
Old 05-03-2009, 11:34 PM #7 (permalink)  
bjsaust's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
bjsaust is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to bjsaust
The point is, you need to think about your bet sizing in every hand. You need to be planning ahead. You want to maximise your EV in every spot.

And people at micros hate to fold.
Just playing to improve.
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 02:01 AM #8 (permalink)  
Guest

Posts: n/a
I wouldn't be afraid to almost pot the turn because to villains at the micros 3 or 3.5 is the same bet sizing
but when they get to the river, they'll instinctively want to fold so try to make their stack to be the smallest possible, I think under 1/2 pot is optimal because it's an "unfoldable" stack size

so even if in this hand you bet $1 on the flop, if you bet 3.5 on the turn he's basically paying you off on any river unless he has the flush draw

however, the same applies on the flop, so if you bet just slightly bigger on the flop (say 1.2) you're still getting called by the same range... and we can bet 3.3 which won't even be a psb and then you can shove river and get 100% paid off by a worse ace
Reply With Quote
bjsaust
Old 05-05-2009, 01:13 AM #9 (permalink)  
bjsaust's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
bjsaust is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to bjsaust
Remember, in this game we measure our winnings in bb/100 hands. So compare M2Ms original line, with my line:

If opponent has a FD and it misses river:

M2M - $7.65 - $3.50 = $4.15 profit
Me - $10.25 - $4.8 = $5.45 profit

So my line makes $1.30 more profit, or 13bbs.


If opponent has a weaker ace:

M2M - $7.15 profit
Me - $8.85 profit

So my line makes $1.70 more profit, or 17bbs.

Lets make some maths up and say on average I make 15bbs more than M2M on this hand.

Now imagine we play a hand like this once every 200 hands. Thats 7.5bb/100 or 3.75 ptbb/100 additional profit I'm making over M2M (and not to pick on M2M here, like I say this is typical of a lot of micro stakes players betting patterns). Thats enough to take an avg winner of 4ptbb/100 to a good winner of almost 8ptbb/100. A break even player to a winning player, etc. You get the picture. Obviously I'm making a bunch of stuff up here, and ignoring the times we lose the hands, but the principle stands.

Now imagine you get better bet sizing in a few more spots, and consider what happens to your winrates!
Just playing to improve.
 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Latest Poker News
KoRnholio Old 05-26-2012, 03:08 PM    Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ...

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:21 AM.

Contact Us - Archive - Top

FTR Testimonials

All content
© FlopTurnRiver.com 		Advertising  |   Partners  |   Testimonials  |   T&C  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  |   Site Map  |   Search FTR

Full Tilt  |   Titan Poker  |   UltimateBet  |   Poker Stars  |   Ladbrokes Bonus  |   Sportsbook  |   Cake Poker  

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum
This is not a gambling website.