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Theeggman
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08-01-2005, 08:42 PM
Post subject: Tourneys > Ring
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 363
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“I have a $20 bankroll and I’m willing to gamble with it.” So I sat down at my first online NLHE table and within 20 minutes I lost it all.
When I came to FTR I was just looking to find the best online poker room. I read the site reviews, analyzed the bonuses and dove in for the free $10 on Royal Vegas (okay, so I really lost $30). I don’t have lots of extra cash and I knew my wife wouldn’t appreciate me reloading everyday so I took a step back. I read many of the threads here and started seeing why I lost my $20 – I’m a fish. I was playing Q4o and flopped trips, that’s 75% of 4-of-a-kind . . . of course I’m pushing my last $16.00.
So that’s March. I then made an agreement with my wife that I would only load $20 a paycheck - and only if I busted with the previous $20. So I quickly found two things: 1) that the NL ring games (at any stakes) can eat up $20 in minutes, and 2) if there was no river card that probably wouldn’t be the case.
So during my step back I realized I needed to see a lot of Hold’em hands. I needed to know what kinds of hands I can expect to see and how often I can expect to see them. So I bought a software program for $50 (thinking it was actually saving me money in the long run) and played against the AI. Between reading FTR everyday and using this software, I worked the AI over at every skill level within a week and I knew I was still a fish. So I wasn’t real satisfied with playing against a program. I reloaded.
Now, I needed to make this $20 last for two weeks. How? That’s when I found another tab on the poker room lobby: “Sit & Go”. “Look at this, it’s a $2 tournament.” Just what I needed: To see a lot of hands for a little cash and play against real opponents. And, with $20 I can lose ten of these. If I win one then I can lose even more! I really wasn’t thinking about making money just yet. I just needed to see a lot of hands and I liked that I could do that and only risk $2 at a time. Epiphany.
Within a month of playing SnGs I gained enough experience to actually grow my bankroll and not have to reload (thank you Rippy, Rada, and Dav). I grew it enough to cash out from RVP in May and take advantage of some bonuses by loading it at Empire (that required ring game play which I won’t get into).
I haven’t had to put my own money in since May. One reason is that I found a way to make even more $$ on my $5-10 buyin: “Multi-Table Tournaments”. These will take 3-4 hours (hopefully) and when you get a win you will get money that is actually worth mentioning to your friends. I got practice at sharpening my reads on players because in MTTs I could get moved to another table at any time. I learned valuable lessons the “hard way” because I’d spend 2 or more hours building a nice stack with good play and then bust out by making a bonehead move. I still make bonehead plays but there is no teacher better than experience. And when that bonehead play costs me 2 hours of valuable time just to bust out on the bubble, that play is sure to stick in my mind for a while - even though I went into “auto-tilt” when I re-raised my TPTK into a made set, “wasted” much of my time, and gave some lucky bastard a gargantuan stack, that experience is worth gold in my mind – well worth $5 and 2 hours imo.
So, a couple of wins and a few ITMs in 150+ player MTTs (along with some bonus whoring) and my BR got over $1,000 – of which I put in about $100 between March and May. This post is simply a way to help out any beginners who may be iffy as to which direction to head when starting out online.
To me, tournaments are by far the best way for new players to get the experience they need in order to actually win at poker. I do sit down at ring games when – and only when – I need to, and my ring play shows me that I still really need a lot of work on my game. But for the beginner who doesn’t have a lot of money to invest, I cannot make any stronger a recommendation than for the low buy-in tournaments when starting off building your game and roll. Now I’m working on how to keep a wife happy while playing poker for 20 hours a week. I’ll keep you posted.
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I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.
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storm75m
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08-01-2005, 09:02 PM
Post subject: Re: Tourneys > Ring
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#2 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 6MAX-NL - Houston
Posts: 401
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Theeggman
Now I’m working on how to keep a wife happy while playing poker for 20 hours a week. I’ll keep you posted.
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Oh do I need some information on this one.... can't wait for THAT post. I've been trying not to touch my BR, but I think I have to withdrawl a little every two weeks just to show her that I'm not doing all this for nothing, then take her out somewhere nice.
Great story though, thanks for sharing. I think that the small buyin SNG's are a great value as far as playing time for the amount of money you invest, but you need a little more advanced knowledge of how to play certain situations. (I think tourneys are way more situational than ring) In a full-ring game, a beginner can get a way with camping for monsters, and turn a decent profit. But you will learn more about all aspects of the game from playing in a tourney.
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Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.
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vqc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,427
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congratulations on building the BR so quickly! Thats some quick moving for having started in march. Good job.
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bluedevil907
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 146
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I'd thoroughly agree that tournaments get a lot more bang for the buck, especially for the beginner with a small bankroll. I started with $50 and after plenty of $1 MTTs at PokerStars, it's moved up to $60. Granted, that's not much to brag about, but I've been able to play in a great number of tournaments, and by hitting ITM you can play at least 3 more (well, rake aside, but that's only at 6th place).
It certainly is more situational, as you're playing with a limited chip stack and no ability to reload without starting your stack from scratch. Blind steals, bluffs, and all-in moves are a lot more common and neccessary if you want to win. Above all else though, don't TILT in a tournament, it can crush you in less than a hand (but take advantage of those who do).
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Great post
But as advice for beginners I would suggest playing some play money games (maybe instead of buying an AI software. I would say that if you can't consistently beat the play moeny game you need more practice before playing real money games.
I personally prefer Sngs to any other form of poker, but I think that if someone's goal is to play ring games then real money Sngs do not provide him with the 'proper' education. He/She will be better off in my opinion playing micro limits (.01/.02)
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JohnnyO
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6
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I agree fully! I had some bad beats when I started in the ring games and they really frustrated me. Losing $5 on one hand when someone hits on the river to beat you really sends me over the edge.
At least when I buy into a tourney, I get a nice long game for the cost of $5.50.
Of course I've been lucky so far playing the tourneys. Give me a few losses in a row and I'll change my tune!
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Theeggman
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 363
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by storm75m
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Theeggman
Now I’m working on how to keep a wife happy while playing poker for 20 hours a week. I’ll keep you posted.
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Oh do I need some information on this one.... can't wait for THAT post. I've been trying not to touch my BR, but I think I have to withdrawl a little every two weeks just to show her that I'm not doing all this for nothing, then take her out somewhere nice. |
My preliminary research tells me it has to do with keeping up on responsibilities. . .responsibilities.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by storm75m
In a full-ring game, a beginner can get a way with camping for monsters, and turn a decent profit. But you will learn more about all aspects of the game from playing in a tourney.
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Very good point.
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Originally Posted by bluedevil907
I started with $50 and after plenty of $1 MTTs at PokerStars, it's moved up to $60. Granted, that's not much to brag about, |
Good job. You're going in the right direction. Like I said, I wasn't even looking to really make much while I was learning. I'm finding that MTTs are somewhat less likely to grow your BR as steadily as SnGs. The amount of time you put in compared to the money (unless you make the top 2 or 3) isn't the best. But the experience I've gained playing MTTs has been pretty valuable imo. Keep it up!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by vqchuang
congratulations on building the BR so quickly! Thats some quick moving for having started in march. Good job.
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Thanks vqc. Like I said, a couple of $250 MTT payouts does wonders (won 2 in about a week and haven't won one since). I did withdraw 1/2 of it last month to help fund a Vegas trip so I'm back down to $500.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
But as advice for beginners I would suggest playing some play money games (maybe instead of buying an AI software. I would say that if you can't consistently beat the play moeny game you need more practice before playing real money games.
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Maybe vs. AI software I'd take play $ games, but I've never played them nor wanted to because of the inherent lack of motivation at the table due to nonexistent stakes. Agreed tho, I would not recommend paying for a software program to learn the game. I should've just loaded the $50 at Absolute and played their $0.50 tourneys with 100 buyins behind me.
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I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.
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BIGandRICH
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jazz Club
Posts: 419
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JohnnyO
At least when I buy into a tourney, I get a nice long game for the cost of $5.50.
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You can just as easily bust out of a tourney on the first hand.
I think new players should learn to beat fun money first. Then step up to real money. I go along with the sng's are better value if your learning to win still. But if you learn to beat Sngs you cant just step over to a cash game and expect to own it. They require different strategies.
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villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Hey ive got 15zillion play chips on absolute in only a few weeks
Cant win a thing at the real money tables though.
Great advice. I remember when i first started, a mate let me play a few freeroles he didnt want to play in (iwon the 4th i played in)
I'd recomend sngs to start with after ply money if possible. You arent risking much of your br in one go and you have a genuine chance of winning money if other ppl play bad poker (weve all seen 4 players bust outta a low buy in sng in the first 5mins!) It should teach you some of the hardest things ive found in poker, both discipline and then the gap theory (not that you recognise those concepts at that point) (eg not playing crappy cards it wastes chips and pushing all in on ace high to steal blinds)
imo you only 'graduate' to cash tables when you understand the dynamics of the game and have read up at sites like this on position, aggresion etc.
But i think as the original post probably said good luck to all those who are new (im stil new too!) this is a tough game and it takes time and patience to learn, and learn you must (and learn some more and some more and...
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JohnnyO
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6
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You can indeed just as easily bust out of a tourney in the first few hands, but I'm not going all in and losing $25 in one sitting. I mostly play pretty tight in the first few rounds, wait for my chance to double, and then loosen my game a little as the table thins out.
I've done the play money thing, racked up 200k in 2 weeks time, and it gets quite tedious. If you think low limit SNGs are bad with people going all-in in the first 5 minutes, try a play money SNG.
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G3O
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto Area
Posts: 58
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JohnnyO
If you think low limit SNGs are bad with people going all-in in the first 5 minutes, try a play money SNG.
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This sounds like a good thing to me. Just stay out of their way if you don't have the cards, and exploit the action if you do. Either way, you are closer to getting ITM. 
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"Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul." - Some dead guy with a great sense of irony.
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jmrogers7
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Theeggman
I would not recommend paying for a software program to learn the game. I should've just loaded the $50 at Absolute and played their $0.50 tourneys with 100 buyins behind me. |
I would suggest that anyone who has $50 that they are willing to spend on software put it toward the cost of Poker Tracker. I think the cost is $55 (not sure if it is still $55 like it was when I bought it). This is truly an invaluable tool for analyzing your game.
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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moiraine57
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 112
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I dunno, when I first started,i found tourneys to be the most frustrating way to play poker. I could sit down, play 3+ hours of great poker, and still not win any money due to asshats drawing out on me.
To me, there was no motivation to learn because I did not get immediate, tangible benefits to playing well.
Instead, in low-level tourneys, I just learned the meaning of suckout, bad play, and general asshattiness. In ring games, on the other hand, I immediately won money for my good play. I was rewarded for good play by $, for bad play by losing $.
Just my $.02. Then again, even now, I would much rather play a ring game than a tourney. Just something about playing great poker for hours on end, but still going home with nothing that rubs me the wrong way.
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JohnnyO
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6
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That would burn me too. Luckily, most of the SNG tourneys I play only take an hour at most.
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galwaylad7
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 6
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Some of the talk about beating the play money games has me a bit confused.
I've been playing a lot of the play money SnG's over at PartyPoker and I consistently place ITM with tight, selective play. Is that any indication that I might be ready to play some low limit SnG's (I know play money games are nothing like real money games)? If so, any reccommendations as to where I could start playing? I don't have a large bankroll and I've read 'rilla's post on Bankroll management and I think that's very important. I'd probably only have about $50 or $75 to deposit.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by galwaylad7
Some of the talk about beating the play money games has me a bit confused.
I've been playing a lot of the play money SnG's over at PartyPoker and I consistently place ITM with tight, selective play. Is that any indication that I might be ready to play some low limit SnG's (I know play money games are nothing like real money games)? If so, any reccommendations as to where I could start playing? I don't have a large bankroll and I've read 'rilla's post on Bankroll management and I think that's very important. I'd probably only have about $50 or $75 to deposit. |
A $50 will get you started on small SNG. Try PokerStars where they have lots of choices and small SNGs. I believe they even have as low as $1 buy in ones. You will be surprised at how little play money games has helped you. If you want to learn, make a deposit and get to it.
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Aces
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 832
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by galwaylad7
If so, any reccommendations as to where I could start playing? I don't have a large bankroll and I've read 'rilla's post on Bankroll management and I think that's very important. I'd probably only have about $50 or $75 to deposit. |
There are a decent amount of site that offer SNGs for $5 or less. If $5 is not too much PokerStars has $5+.50 or plenty others for less then that. They also have microlimit cash games, which are nice when starting out. Check out Poker Room Reviews at the top - they list what stakes each site has.
I wouldn't draw any conclusions from your success with play money SNGs.
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Theeggman
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 363
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by galwaylad7
I've been playing a lot of the play money SnG's over at PartyPoker and I consistently place ITM with tight, selective play. |
I think that the most important thing to learn for play in tourneys is patience. And if you've got the patience to wait it out amongst the whirlwind of wild play in the play money games then you should probably try your hand at the low levels. My suggestion is to go to Absolute Poker and sit in on the $0.50's and then move to the $1.00's when you're comfortable. I don't know of any other sites that offer $0.50 tourneys (though you won't see your $50 move very quickly at these with just a $1.75 added to your roll when you take 1st). Just my .02
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I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.
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galwaylad7
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 6
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I was always a bit leery about how indicative the play money games are concerning how I might fare at a real money SnG.
Eggman is right, though. Playing the fake money games has helped me develop the patience of a saint for early on, then change gears and play an aggressive game when it gets close to the money.
Thanks for the recommendations of PokerStars. I think I'll try the micro-limit ring games and a $5 + .50 SnG isn't too bad if I can deposit $75.
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vqc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,427
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bah if u can deposit 75, try and deposit 100 and not have to worry about swings.
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