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drtofu66
Old 11-02-2005, 03:39 AM     Post subject: Tournament question #1 (permalink)  
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No real read on BB (and I'm very new to tournies, so I wouldn't put much faith in any read of mine). My notes have him calling twice and raising 3 times over the last 25 hands. One maniac at the table going all-in over the top 10 times over the last 25 has me distracted.

Stage #227279009 Tourney ID 49817 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $40 - 2005-11-01 22:45:35 (ET)
Table: 4 (Real Money) Seat #9 is the dealer
Seat 1 - DRTOFU ($1995 in chips)
Seat 3 - SNOWMAN8 ($4020 in chips)
Seat 4 - J_SAMPSON ($2965 in chips)
Seat 5 - SEYMOREFLOPS ($5850 in chips)
Seat 6 - GERNDG ($3060 in chips)
Seat 7 - GANGSTA ($1435 in chips)
Seat 8 - SLICK_NICK ($2220 in chips)
Seat 9 - BRUSKI ($3955 in chips)
DRTOFU - Posts small blind $40
SNOWMAN8 - Posts big blind $80
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to DRTOFU [Kc Jh]
J_SAMPSON - Calls $80
SEYMOREFLOPS - Calls $80
GERNDG - Calls $80
GANGSTA - Calls $80
SLICK_NICK - Calls $80
BRUSKI - Folds
DRTOFU - Calls $40
SNOWMAN8 - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4s Kd 5d]
DRTOFU - Bets $560
SNOWMAN8 - Calls $560
J_SAMPSON - Folds
SEYMOREFLOPS - Folds
GERNDG - Folds
GANGSTA - Folds
SLICK_NICK - Folds
*** TURN *** [4s Kd 5d] [6d]
DRTOFU - ??

Damn blind hands. I don't know how many times I've told myself that I'd check or just complete the BB and check/fold if I get anything less than 2 pair or FH. I don't know how many times I've gotten into big messes after catching a piece of the flop. Damned KJ. Ultimate trap hand. Just fold PF and forget about it? But, now that I'm in this mess, check/fold the turn to any bet?
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Demiparadigm
Old 11-02-2005, 09:54 AM #2 (permalink)  
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you can bet a little less on the pot, and still give draws bad odds. about 2/3 pot is good here, since you are out of position.
It is weak tight, but I probably check/fold the turn. the flush draw just got there,(as well as a possible straight) in case you weren't beat on the flop.
Realize many players will try to slowplay the flush, so a bet won't tell you much.
Also, any bet effectively pot-commits you after your huge bet on the flop.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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TLR
Old 11-02-2005, 12:11 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 I think completing the SB with KJo and so many limpers is good.

However with 6 people seeing the flop betting TPMK out of position is a dangerous move. There is a good chance someone hit two pair or better.
I have the feeling you are beat on the flop, so anymoney you put in the pot is dead money


 
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drtofu66
Old 11-02-2005, 04:17 PM #4 (permalink)  
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So do you check through/fold?

What if you're on the button or in MP? All this low limit HE bonus whoring has really dulled my sense of when I may be beat.
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storm75m
Old 11-02-2005, 04:44 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Very sticky situation you've gotten yourself into... I agree with not betting so much on that flop OOP, but now that you're here...

I guess I put out a weak bet (I always like to bet something...) and fold to a re-raise. Check the river if they flat call, fold to any decent bet.
Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.
 
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TLR
Old 11-03-2005, 05:36 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
So do you check through/fold?

What if you're on the button or in MP? All this low limit HE
I assume you mean low stake no limit holdem, as opposed to limit holdem.

I would check the flop and see what kind of action occurs. If there is heavy action I fold, if there is one raise and folding all around I may reraise depending on reads and the size of the bet.
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drtofu66
Old 11-03-2005, 01:11 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
Quote:
So do you check through/fold?

What if you're on the button or in MP? All this low limit HE
I assume you mean low stake no limit holdem, as opposed to limit holdem.

I would check the flop and see what kind of action occurs. If there is heavy action I fold, if there is one raise and folding all around I may reraise depending on reads and the size of the bet.
Actually, I did mean limit HE; I've gone overboard with the SSHE advice of calling down in a big pot and have been stupidly calling down/not believeing someone else has a hand. That probably accounts for this horrible downswing I'm in. And my less than stellar bet OOP with TPMK into a large field pretty much sums it up.

Well, the BB had 45o and let me hang myself (as the hand played out, I pushed and he called, of course. I had been pretty tight so far; not the image to semi-bluff on a flush draw). Had I checked the flop, I'm guessing he would have checked the flop also (I'm guesing that's the standard play with 45o in this situation with so many players in the hand and a draw heavy board. Lucky for him he ran into a sucker like me). Provided it checks all around, the turn card probably keeps me from making a stab at that pot and I could have lived to see another hand. Not a bad lesson to learn
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Rondavu
Old 11-03-2005, 03:02 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Betting strong out of position is very risky. The problem wasn't seeing the flop. The problem was not respecting position postflop.

You have no power to protect yourself out of position. Don't pretend to. You have no choice but to check and potentially give away free cards to get a rock solid read. It's a risk equation.

When I first started playing I would feel helpless flopping top pair multi way out of position. I learned to allow my opponents to dictate the action, and assess my strength from there. It's ok to not have control of a hand when you have the best of it when the risk is too high that you will recieve the worst of it. Check the flop. Fold the turn.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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