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Robb

11-02-2007, 09:33 PM Post subject: Top 5 lessons in last 20k hands

#1 (permalink)

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I’ve been playing poker for a year, and I’ve been a winning player for about three months coinciding with reading four poker books and joining FTR discussions. I thought I’d post this as a Beginner’s thread and see if any of y’all have learned similar lessons or other ones that I could benefit from. These are poker fundamentals that most people know about, but I am finally internalizing them.

1. Poker Patience means for-real, wait-forever patience
This is one of my biggest weaknesses in life, so it’s no surprise I had to learn it for poker, too. Patience means taking 100 hands to set up a donk for a stack-sized play, getting sucked out on, and setting it up again. Then having the donk leave. Then working the next donk. It means watching while the donks rake in stacks while you’re card dead – three nights in a row. And then makin’ do when you can’t make a hand in what seems like forever. And still playin' good poker even when it means fold, fold, fold.

2. Picking Spots means actually thinking about your picks
Starting hand charts can get you playing too loose. I like playing and used any old excuse to play. I’d find the loosest starting chart and treat it like a contractual obligation to get involved in a hand. And I’d be dominated. Now, I enjoy playing when ahead.

Same with c-bets. When I first learned what c-bets were, I used ‘em every hand I could. Now, I’m learning to check down, even giving up some slight edges, just to make sure I’m not getting predictable. And to make sure that when I start shoving chips in the middle, I’m likely to be ahead.

3. Variance goes both ways
When I run good and win 30 BB / 100 for a thousand hands, I smile ‘cuz it does feel good. But I don’t get overly excited. It’s just variance. And when I get stacked 3 times in a hour, I don’t consider wrist-slits. I think about the hands involved, and if I got my money in good – well, that’s just poker. If the fish are biting, I’m still playing. No worries when the variance is against me, sure, but it’s just as important not to think I’m Johnny Chan when it’s all hitting for me.

4. No tilting over bad beats
When I get bad beated, now, I just smile and reload. If I actually read the game well (not just lucky breaks) and got my KK all-in preflop against AQo, I’m thrilled, even if he flopped an ace and rivered a Q. If it only happens a couple times in a night, I’m okay with it. When it happens three or four times in 75 hands, them I take a break. Usually 5 minutes is enough. I get right back in there and play hard. I try to remember this basic rule – if you get your money all-in good more often that you get it all-in bad, you’ll suffer more suckouts than your opponents. And that’s a good thing.

5. It’s all part of the big poker game of life
I used to have problems playing badly both at the beginning of sessions and at the end, too loose, too aggressive. Early in sessions, I was trying to generate action, make something happen. Late, I was tired, groggy and had a devil-may-care attitude. I was ready to gambool. Combing patience, spot-picking and an understanding of variance allows me to play each hand well. The results will take care of themselves. It really has helped me to think of my sessions as all one big poker game that just gets interrupted every now and again.

If you got all the way down here, thanks for listening to my rambling. Play good. Peace.

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daven

11-03-2007, 05:10 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

nice. I'll add another couple as well. And I'll celebrate when i finally feel as though I've succeeded in internalising them
a) Trust my reads and laydown when I think I am beaten.
b) Don't try and play good LAG poker when I haven't quite figured out how to play TAGgy ABC poker

spoonitnow

11-04-2007, 12:36 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: IRC Chat Room

Posts: 5,406

The best way to avoid tilt is to associate times you get sucked out on with an immediate return to your emotional center or whatever. It should become a reaction to become more focused at what you're doing immediately after you get sucked out on because that's when you're most vulnerable to doing something stupid imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

Fnord

11-05-2007, 05:19 AM

#4 (permalink)

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When the table rock wakes up, AQ is toilet paper and I've thrown away AK quite a few times as well. My LHE background taught me to fold early and think through commitment decisions before I get stuck in a pot.

Although, when I'm tilt I do silly stuff like this, although at least I had enough sense to put him on what he had after I hit the call button...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($204.90)
CO ($346)
Button ($122.40)
SB ($198)
Fnord ($101.25)
UTG ($82.70)
UTG+1 ($229.55)
MP1 ($128.30)
MP2 ($106)

Preflop: Fnord is BB with J

, J

.
3 folds, MP2 raises to $6, 3 folds, SB calls $5, Fnord raises to $20, MP2 raises to $40, SB folds, Fnord calls $20.

Flop: ($86) 2

, K

, 9

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: ($86) 8

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks.

River: ($86) K

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: $86

Results:
Fnord has Js Jc (two pair, kings and jacks).
MP2 has Ac Ah (two pair, aces and kings).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

donkbee

11-05-2007, 11:58 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2005

Location: so close but so far

Posts: 3,604

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

fold early and think through commitment decisions before I get stuck in a pot.

This is so important and something I'm really trying to work on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

Robb

11-06-2007, 12:40 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Quote:

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

fold early and think through commitment decisions before I get stuck in a pot.

This is so important and something I'm really trying to work on.

Most of the trouble hands I find myself in are ones where I had no idea preflop what I would do with the hand if I got played back against. I've been trying to think preflop, what will I do with this hand if I get called/rr'd on the flop?

Since I've been doing that, I've noticed another quite obvious poker fact: it's easier to play the flop from ahead than from behind. Tightening up to avoid marginal situations is +EV for me (and probably most beginners). If you're opening range is solid, most flop decisions get easier. I'm getting better at recognizing when commitment decisions loom - a street before actually they occur is good (working on that - not there, yet). Thanks, fnord, good posts.

deacon_bluez

11-06-2007, 03:00 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2006

Location: Minnesota, USA

Posts: 216

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($204.90)
CO ($346)
Button ($122.40)
SB ($198)
Fnord ($101.25)
UTG ($82.70)
UTG+1 ($229.55)
MP1 ($128.30)
MP2 ($106)

Preflop: Fnord is BB with J

, J

.
3 folds, MP2 raises to $6, 3 folds, SB calls $5, Fnord raises to $20, MP2 raises to $40, SB folds, Fnord calls $20.

Flop: ($86) 2

, K

, 9

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: ($86) 8

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks.

River: ($86) K

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: $86

Results:
Fnord has Js Jc (two pair, kings and jacks).
MP2 has Ac Ah (two pair, aces and kings).[/quote]

I'm a little confused at this. Why in the world did AA never bet? And why not take a stab at that pot on the turn with JJ, if not the flop?

bode

11-06-2007, 03:20 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Posts: 4,270

bode is an unknown quantity at this point

fnord read his soul obv.

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

donkbee

11-06-2007, 06:01 PM

#9 (permalink)

WELP

Join Date: May 2005

Location: so close but so far

Posts: 3,604

Quote:

Originally Posted by deacon_bluez

, J

.
3 folds, MP2 raises to $6, 3 folds, SB calls $5, Fnord raises to $20, MP2 raises to $40, SB folds, Fnord calls $20.

Flop: ($86) 2

, K

, 9

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: ($86) 8

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks.

River: ($86) K

(2 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: $86

Results:
Fnord has Js Jc (two pair, kings and jacks).
MP2 has Ac Ah (two pair, aces and kings).

I'm a little confused at this. Why in the world did AA never bet? And why not take a stab at that pot on the turn with JJ, if not the flop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Although, when I'm tilt I do silly stuff like this, although at least I had enough sense to put him on what he had after I hit the call button...

sounds like fnord called and then said, ah he has AA ... hence the no bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

Fnord

11-06-2007, 06:12 PM

#10 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Robb, all that said, opening light with position is g00t.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

11-06-2007, 06:15 PM

#11 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by courtiebee

sounds like fnord called and then said, ah he has AA ... hence the no bet.

AK, KK and QQ was in his range as well.

When he checked the flop I knew I was almost never any good. People rarely make weak raises to set-up a flop push then check air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Chopper

11-06-2007, 06:22 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i still cant believe he tried to slowplay two streets here, and then, checked behind the river as if he knew you had a K.

do you think it even remotely possible he is nitty enough you could have pushed the river, and bumped him off? i know it would be stupid, but is villain nitty enough to lay down there? i figure if he cant pull the trigger, he CAN fold.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Fnord

11-06-2007, 06:26 PM

#13 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i figure if he cant pull the trigger, he CAN fold.

This doesn't hold true for most players. All too often people will put me on a better hand.... and call....

Actually, this is one of the fustrations I have with deep stack play against unknowns. It's so hard to get a read on people's call/fold bias when facing big money because these spots don't come up a lot. Yet these spots are so insanely profitable if you have good data to work with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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