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FMLwin422

03-27-2010, 11:54 PM Post subject: Too passive w/ the nuts?

#1 (permalink)

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So, I got into this hand from the BB and just ended up hitting the nuts. I am realizing that when I hit my set or have a situation like this I tend to always go for the c/r option, or even c/c on the flop, and then default to either a bet or c/r on the turn. I dont like how I played this. This line seems very strange to me but I am continuously running into it, and would really like some advice. I'm going to take a crack at ranges here so let me know what you think!

Full Tilt Poker Game #19608255555: Table Bagel (6 max) - $0.01/$0.02 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:55:30 ET - 2010/03/27
Seat 1: Berliozz ($8.22)
Seat 2: jimmybassplayer ($1.93)
Seat 3: Pitrs666 ($4.82)
Seat 4: FLOP_CORSAIR ($2)
Seat 5: Hero ($2)
Seat 6: nilven ($2)
FLOP_CORSAIR posts the small blind of $0.01
Hero posts the big blind of $0.02
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [5h 4s]
Berliozz folds
jimmybassplayer folds
Pitrs666 calls $0.02
FLOP_CORSAIR calls $0.01
Hero checks
*** FLOP *** [7s 5c 5d]
FLOP_CORSAIR checks
Hero has 15 seconds left to act
Hero checks
Pitrs666 checks
*** TURN *** [7s 5c 5d] [9c]
FLOP_CORSAIR bets $0.06
Hero has 15 seconds left to act
Hero raises to $0.18
Pitrs666 folds
FLOP_CORSAIR calls $0.12
*** RIVER *** [7s 5c 5d 9c] [Ad]
FLOP_CORSAIR checks
Hero bets $0.42

Pre Flop: So there is a limper and the SB completed. I dont have a whole lot of information on the villains because I had recently sat down (broken PT3), but I will say they were playing very loose in general as I have found a lot at 2nl. So my idea of ranges here is, 23s-78s, A2-A8o, J6-J9, 22-55, 57s-810s...(figuring they would bet their suited aces and also any top 8 hands, as well as anything left out. i do see players sometimes limping AA, AK, KK but I think thats pretty player specific although I kept it in the back of my mind)
Flop: I checked here hoping I could c/r or, do so on the next street and get as much money as possible. Should I have bet? I run into this a lot. So when they both check the flop I am going to guess they didnt hit anything, which would make their range: 23s, 34s, 68s, 810s 22-44, A2-A6, J6, J8, J9
Turn: So villian bets the turn which makes me think he has a lot of draws in his range, or even could have possibly paired his 9. I figured if that was the case I could get value out of a raise.
River: He checks to me on the turn and I am thinking he has probobaly missed his draw/afraid of the A, but I wanted to get as much value as I could out of my hand so I bet big. If he missed his draw he was probably not calling with anything anyways, and if he had a naked pair then I thought he may want to call and hope I had missed my draw. Maybe I should have bet smaller.

I hope that was detailed enough and made sense. I am trying to improve on hand reading and put people on ranges so I hope it all made sense but I would love some advice!

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Numbr2intheWorld

03-28-2010, 07:49 AM

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You should have bet the flop because a) you really can't count on the button to bet and b) you want to build the pot.

btw, i wouldn't worry too much about putting people on specific ranges when they're super wide. Obviously the button and sb here can have an assload of hands, just wait til they define they're hands more to think about what they have.

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FMLwin422

03-28-2010, 11:34 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Ok thanks

I just wanted to try and attempt at figuring out the range for practice, i suppose.

rpm

03-28-2010, 11:50 AM

#4 (permalink)

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at 2nl i dont feel it can me emphasised enough that if you rate to have the best hand against a villains range (especially an unknown) you should bet, and bet a high % of the pot. checking with intentions of raising at these stakes is going to cost you because the players are typically VERY passive (that is, lean toward checking and calling) and, by the same token, not very aggressive (that is, lean away from betting and raising). so you cannot count on villains being very aggressive and betting even with decent hands. but you definitely can count on them calling with a terribly wide and exploitable range. learning how to value bet is what will see you cruising through 2nl. i promise.

as played the turn raise and river bet are fine. but you missed a huge slice of value (and hand protection against, say, 78) by checking the flop. because in no limit bets are typically in relation to the current potsize, no bets going in on the flop vastly reduces the amount you can bet on the turn and, of course, on the river when you have a great hand.

ps good work for attempting the range analysis.

rpm

03-28-2010, 11:53 AM

#5 (permalink)

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oh and by the way, you didn't have the nuts. not sure if you meant "a super strong hand" or actually thought you had the nuts. the nuts on each street are as follows:
on the flop: 77 (full house, sevens full of fives)
on the turn: 99 (full house, nines full of fives)
on the river: AA (full house, aces full of fives)

*this is because you have 5 and know for a fact that no-one can have 55, as there arent two fives left in the deck. if you had 77, the nuts on every street would obviously be 55 for quad fives

Dex

03-28-2010, 12:22 PM

#6 (permalink)

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The kind of hands a villain will continue with on the flop here in a small, limped pot are 7x, 5x, underpairs, overpairs, OESDs, gutshots, A-hi and sometimes even worse overcards. Some of these will call one street, a lot of them two and even three.

Definitely a spot for 3 streets of solid, as much as you can value.

littleogre

03-28-2010, 02:25 PM

#7 (permalink)

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past

[]op has the nuts

seriously though just over bet the flop. They'll call with ace high more times then not. It's also usually a mistake to expect the villain to bet. They are usually passive.

Hoopy

03-28-2010, 06:18 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Hoopy is an unknown quantity at this point

I've got the same problem as you - only c/r'ing with strong hands and never as a bluff.

On the flop I would need to know that BTN likes to stab at many pots/maniac to check.

Depends on how loose they call down, if they are super stations just overbet the pot for max value each street.

Tbh I don't see them differentiating between bet sizes at 2NL, I think 0.1, 0.3, 0.75 should be fine.

tomato paste carnage

03-28-2010, 06:28 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by HoopyDude

Tbh I don't see them differentiating between bet sizes at 2NL, I think 0.1, 0.3, 0.75 should be fine.

Bet sizing is important, regardless of stakes.

Bet strong hands when you hit them. /endthread

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FMLwin422

03-28-2010, 07:04 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Thank you rpm for taking the time to respond! and yeah, I meant for all intensive purposes I suppose I was pretty positive I had the best hand by far (or just very strong hand). So, thanks for pointing that out to me, My termanology was not quite correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpm

oh and by the way, you didn't have the nuts. not sure if you meant "a super strong hand" or actually thought you had the nuts.

littleogre

03-28-2010, 09:25 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tomato paste carnage

Bet sizing is important, regardless of stakes.

Bet strong hands when you hit them. /endthread

with all due respect i disagree. You just flopped a set on a wet board and the pot has 20 cents. Do you really think tour average 2nl donk is gonna care whether you bet 20 cents or 25 cents?

littleogre

03-28-2010, 09:32 PM

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ok here is the line and bet sizes i would take. We assume villain has a hand he will call with in this scenerio.

flop bet .10 cents and now pot has 26 cents
turn bet .35 and now pot has .96
river assuming no draws got there bet around 1.20 to 1.3.

FMLwin422

03-28-2010, 09:41 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Thanks littleogre

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littleogre

03-28-2010, 09:56 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FMLwin422

Thanks littleogre

Well it's not like thats the optimal betting size just saying you can over bet every street and it want matter a hoot how often they call or don't call.

Micro2Macro

03-28-2010, 10:09 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

Well it's not like thats the optimal betting size just saying you can over bet every street and it want matter a hoot how often they call or don't call.

but over betting is exploitable

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littleogre

03-30-2010, 10:37 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

but over betting is exploitable

well of course it is but players at 2nl aren't exactly experts at exploiting people. One more thing most people at 2nl don't consider pot odds in the way that you might. They just say hey it's only 12 more cents. not caring they are getting 3-1 on the call or 5-1.

littleogre

03-30-2010, 10:41 AM

#17 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

with all due respect i disagree. You just flopped a set on a wet board and the pot has 20 cents. Do you really think tour average 2nl donk is gonna care whether you bet 20 cents or 25 cents?

Argh can't believe i called trips a set. It tilts the hell out of me when other people do that

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