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tuuk2
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09-22-2009, 08:36 PM
Post subject: Too obvious?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Here's a hand I played at the end of my session. It had been an extremely frustrating day and I'm sure I went slightly tilty here. So is it really that obvious I missed the flop here? Was my pre-flop overbet a bit too much or does it back up my flop overbet?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Button ($4.25)
SB ($10)
Hero (BB) ($10.20)
UTG ($4.50)
MP ($4.60)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , K
2 folds, Button calls $0.10, SB bets $0.50, Hero raises to $2, Button calls $1.90, 1 fold
Flop: ($4.50) 3, Q, 4 (2 players)
[color=#CC3333]Hero bets $8.20 (All-In)
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Dannyboy6
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 53
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If they see you as actually being tilty, and playing loose, your play was BAD.
Think about what others think of you as well, before you try to represent / try to double up!
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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They wouldn't have had any reads on me. It was only my 5th hand at the table and I hadn't done anything like it to that point.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Yeah that's some really great analysis there OP especially the part where you didn't make a single overbet in the hand.
There are no reads or shit for this hand. Jesus Christ what the hell are you wanting here? Us to read your goddamn mind with what you were thinking with the bet along with reading your tracker's mind and your PokerStars notes.txt file's mind so we know your reads and stats on these dumb bastards?
Why the hell are you even posting this? It's not like you thought for more than half a second before you instasnaptilt shoved the flop so fucking hard you broke your goddamn mouse.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Check stack sizes OP.. Then get back to us.
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Yeah that's some really great analysis there OP especially the part where you didn't make a single overbet in the hand.
There are no reads or shit for this hand. Jesus Christ what the hell are you wanting here? Us to read your goddamn mind with what you were thinking with the bet along with reading your tracker's mind and your PokerStars notes.txt file's mind so we know your reads and stats on these dumb bastards?
Why the hell are you even posting this? It's not like you thought for more than half a second before you instasnaptilt shoved the flop so fucking hard you broke your goddamn mouse. |
Bad mood today? I don't use a mouse, it's a laptop. I don't expect you to read my mind or even comment if you have nothing to say. Obviously you think my question is a waste of time, which I can respect. You're rudeness is pretty much unnecessary. Sorry if I made you read something and then respond to it against your will.
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speedcake
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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I wish I could delete this thread from my mind.
OP do you have a real question about the hand?
mmm, advice lets see.....uh....dont play if you feel tilty.
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your banner burned here
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Check stack sizes OP.. Then get back to us.
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Thanks, Stacks. At least you said my post was a waste of time in constructive sort of way. Looking at the stack sizes, I see that the villain would almost have to call if he thought he might still be ahead, since he's got almost half his stack in there already. My all-in was a mistake.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tuuk2
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Yeah that's some really great analysis there OP especially the part where you didn't make a single overbet in the hand.
There are no reads or shit for this hand. Jesus Christ what the hell are you wanting here? Us to read your goddamn mind with what you were thinking with the bet along with reading your tracker's mind and your PokerStars notes.txt file's mind so we know your reads and stats on these dumb bastards?
Why the hell are you even posting this? It's not like you thought for more than half a second before you instasnaptilt shoved the flop so fucking hard you broke your goddamn mouse. |
Bad mood today? I don't use a mouse, it's a laptop. I don't expect you to read my mind or even comment if you have nothing to say. Obviously you think my question is a waste of time, which I can respect. You're rudeness is pretty much unnecessary. Sorry if I made you read something and then respond to it against your will. |
ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR instead of getting butthurt you could actually do what I suggest in the part that you quoted here. BUT NO! That would require that you give a fuck about getting better and getting a legitimate answer to whatever your question was about your half-pot semibluff shove on the flop.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by speedcake
I wish I could delete this thread from my mind.
OP do you have a real question about the hand?
mmm, advice lets see.....uh....dont play if you feel tilty.
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I guess I wasn't clear. My question was essentially does my all-in here look like I missed the flop and am trying to push someone off the pot. I think my answer was "how the hell should we know since we weren't there?" or something to that effect.
Again, my sincere apologies for wasting everyone's time.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tuuk2
Quote:
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Originally Posted by speedcake
I wish I could delete this thread from my mind.
OP do you have a real question about the hand?
mmm, advice lets see.....uh....dont play if you feel tilty.
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I guess I wasn't clear. My question was essentially does my all-in here look like I missed the flop and am trying to push someone off the pot. I think my answer was "how the hell should we know since we weren't there?" or something to that effect.
Again, my sincere apologies for wasting everyone's time. |
@ the bold, 100% EXACTLY! I'm glad you understand, but I'm confused as to why you haven't furnished reads or your own analysis about your opponent's range or what he might think your range is or what you think the EV is of your play, etc.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR instead of getting butthurt you could actually do what I suggest in the part that you quoted here. BUT NO! That would require that you give a fuck about getting better and getting a legitimate answer to whatever your question was about your half-pot semibluff shove on the flop.
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Believe it or not, I do wish to get better. I went back through your post, stacks, and speedcake and responded in kind. Perhaps I should have explained myself better in the original OP. Perhaps I should have not even asked this question. Anyhow, thank you for taking the time to respond again.
Edit to include your newest comment: Since it's 5 hands in, I have no reads on anyone and they don't have any on me. Obviously, since the villain called instead of raised, I can most likely exclude AA-KK from his hand. Possibly even QQ, but I think some people might call with that. Other than that, it's some mid to high pocket pair (55-JJ) A-K, A-Q. Hell, it could even be less than that, but I don't think he's calling with K-Q or K-J.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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spoonitnow: "give us some reads and your analysis cuz thought processes >>>>single actions, plus reads help figure out the correct single action. Plus you suck donkey dick.
tuuk: leave me alone
spoonitnow: no really, do it. and you suck donkey dick
tuuk: omg i hate you
spoonitnow: no REALLY, do it. and you suck the largest biggest donkey dick ever
tuuk: y would i want to do that, plus i hate you. LALALALALA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
spoonitnow: "give us some reads and your analysis cuz thought processes >>>>single actions, plus reads help figure out the correct single action. Plus you suck donkey dick.
tuuk: leave me alone
spoonitnow: no really, do it. and you suck donkey dick
tuuk: omg i hate you
spoonitnow: no REALLY, do it. and you suck the largest biggest donkey dick ever
tuuk: y would i want to do that, plus i hate you. LALALALALA
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It's not so much fun when it's been done to me. But honestly, I don't hate spoons at all. He has the right to say what he wants, he's been here long enough. Not only that, he's usually right. I respect his advice.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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DONT respect his advice. Learn from his advice. Maybe its bad advice, who knows. Try it out and see what happens, ask others, check shit out mang.
for starters, he wants you to post your thought process ie
"i bet 8.5 on the flop because i marklared the marklar to marklar"
then we can say
"well, if i were to bet 8.5 on this flop, i wouldnt do it because of marcklar, but instead because of marklar"
and that kind of response leads to discusion, as well as improved thought processes so that next time, you say
"i bet 8.5 on this totally different flop because of marklar"
and then we can say
standard.
or "well, this flop sucks really hard with these opponents so marklar doesnt really apply" or some shit.
so do it :P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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I respect his advice like I would anyone with more experience than me. It doesn't necessarily mean I agree with it. However, thank you for your comment. You did make it obvious why my original post sucked. Now, maybe we can start over.
It's 5 hands in. I don't have a read on my opponents, nor could they have a read on me. We've got one limper, one raiser to .50, or 5x the BB. I re-raise to $2 because I want to narrow the field or win it right there. If I get re-raised by the original raiser, I've got to put him on a premium hand, possibly AA or KK. Most likely I fold if I get re-raised here. When the original limper calls, I put him on the range you see in my last reply to spoons above. (mid PPs or AQ-A-10)
Now with that flop since I'm out of position, I need to decide whether he hit a Queen there, because he's likely not folding if he did. So I raise all-in to put the pressure on him. I don't think he can call with anything less than TPTK there. However, my question comes in that does the overbet look like a bluff to anyone?
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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It's not technically an overbet. Yeah you put more than pot in the middle, but only $2.25 of that goes into the pot, because that's all villain has left. So it's just a 1/2 PSB shove. One that he is going to call with every pair he makes to this flop, if he can assume AK is ever in your range, which it obviously is.
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
It's not technically an overbet. Yeah you put more than pot in the middle, but only $2.25 of that goes into the pot, because that's all villain has left. So it's just a 1/2 PSB shove. One that he is going to call with every pair he makes to this flop, if he can assume AK is ever in your range, which it obviously is.
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Well, that summed it up quite simply. Putting it another way, in the immortal words of Homer Simpson... "I'm so stupid, I'm so stupid, I'm so stupid. Duh, duh, duh."
I keep thinking I'm risking all my chips. I'm only risking all of his. He would be right to call.
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Donkafelts
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 115
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I Kind of doubt a half stack is calling pre with ak or qq, so i guess you could put him on 55-jj AQ-AT, but its kind of hard without any history at 10nl. Against that range you have 45% equity on flop, so you can't really fold if he puts the rest of his stack in when you check it to him. Villian is getting 3 to 1 so you don't gain a ton of equity when he folds his 87s or whatever, but i would guess its worse to give him a free card.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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This should show you why you need to stop playing with even the smallest signs of tilt. Go get something to drink and come back if you need to play but stop playing. You were so tilted that you aren't even looking at stack sizes when you play. The tilt lasted so long you still never noticed halfway through this thread but others seen it as soon as you posted it.
It's important information, and you need to see it when you play a hand. Every hand.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
"i bet 8.5 on the flop because i marklared the marklar to marklar"
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marklar isn't a verb, you marklar-speaking donk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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if he showed us JJ and went all in out of turn we should call
DUCY?
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
"i bet 8.5 on the flop because i marklared the marklar to marklar"
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marklar isn't a verb, you marklar-speaking donk |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
if he showed us JJ and went all in out of turn we should call
DUCY?
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Yes. If he was to act first and pushed in his last $2, that would make the pot $6.50 and it would cost me $2 to call or 3:1. I have 6 clean outs and backdoor flush and straights (harder to catch a straight since two of the jacks are gone).
Poker math is not my strongest point (It's a work in progress for me), but I think that's right.
Poker Odds-Calculator from FlopTurnRiver.com
Holdem Hi: 100,000 sampled boards containing Q 3 4
Player 1 (K A ): win 29.20% lose 70.80% tie 0.00% EV 0.292
Player 2 (J J ): win 70.80% lose 29.20% tie 0.00% EV 0.708
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jyms
This should show you why you need to stop playing with even the smallest signs of tilt. Go get something to drink and come back if you need to play but stop playing. You were so tilted that you aren't even looking at stack sizes when you play. The tilt lasted so long you still never noticed halfway through this thread but others seen it as soon as you posted it.
It's important information, and you need to see it when you play a hand. Every hand.
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Agreed. I kept telling myself to stop playing, but I kept trying to chase my losses. I can't guarantee it won't happen again, but I determined to stop in cases like this.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Keep this in mind when thinking about chasing losses. When we play poker as learned players we understand things like variance and winrates. When your playing in your usual game you may not have had enough hands to actually know your true winrate, but you have a winrate nonetheless. For example, saying you have a true winrate of 5BB/100 hands, that would net you a buy in every 2000 hands. Over a month you may play 25K hands which will earn you over 10.5 buyins. Pretty simple math, but the funny thing is we may have some good or bad variance in that one month sample and win more or less than our true winrate actually is.
In knowing this, why do we continue to play when we are down? We do it to win money back. But in actuality, over our longer term game we are really only going to win 5BB/100 hands. Meaning we will need to play 2000 hands more just to win back our buy in we have lost, but in all reality that is not what we think when we keep playing. There is another problem to this puzzle. Nobody plays the same poker game every time. We have levels of skill and I am sure you have heard about A game, B game and C game or some variation. Well, we tend to estimate our winrate by how we play our A game in our minds. When we have good sessions and string them together we have all started doing the math. "I can earn this much over this many hands and be mother fucking rich" we tell ourselves. But how often do we actually play our A game? That's a question you need to tell yourself the answer to, and if you don't like the answer then fix it. Things that will take you off of your A game are fatigue, stress, being focused on other aspects of life or the internet and mostly TILT. So basically what happens to our scenario of playing to catch up? Well we just tilted and have stopped playing our A game. We are now not playing at 5BB/100 but considerably less, maybe even playing our C game has us playing at -5BB/100, so we are in fact not playing catch up but we are playing donator.
Yea, sometimes you win back the money playing a C game by tilting and jamming some bad hand and sucking out, sometimes we will get AA two times in 55 hands and actually take down some nice pots, but over the next 6 months our C game will still run us at -5BB/100 so we need to eliminate playing that game, or minimizing it.
We need to do two things that are more important than playing catch up at that time. One, We need to work on our A game. We need to get better, and we need to learn more. One interesting thing is that you will never learn anything about poker while playing a C game (or on tilt) Just try it, send a hand history to someone when your tilted or burning after a session and watch how angry you get when they tell you you should have folded on the flop. You don't hear that, you may even close the MSN/AIM window, shut down IRC or just close FTR if it's posted here. You only learn poker in your A game mindset. AHA moments come in your A game mindset. We need to work on being in that midndset all the time. The other thing we need to do is work on our C game. Get that c game better. If your C game has you never tilting, never distracted, but it's the worst you can play and that is a 2BB/100 winrate type of game then it's a win/win. You will be playing in your A game more often and it will be a better A game. You will play in your C game less often and it will not be a hindrance to your poker life. The gap will be closer so transition will be easier and last there will be no more tilt.
Seriously, don't play catch up. I can tell you from experience that I have had some serious problems with c game type downswings causing me to lose almost my entire bankroll several times. I stunted my poker growth for over a year by playing tired, stressed and just not in a good place. I can tell you now that it's better to shut down the tables down 2 BI's and getting back into your A game either later in the day, or next week, than it is to try and eek out 200 more hands in the wrong state of mind. Everyone has losing sessions. Durr has losing sessions, Phil Galfond has losing sessions, even our very own Nutsinho, the best online player there is at the moment has $100K downswings. The losses happen, play your A game and get some sleep. The tables aren't going anywhere. And there is no way in hell you will make any life altering money in that very moment your tilted, bitching at the table and just hating life.
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Very well said, jyms. And having read your op, I know you are speaking from experience. I will take what you said and try to digest it. It's easier said than done of course, but I do think I'm getting better at it. My biggest problem is looking at poker long term and not session by session or day by day.
I think it's important for me to grasp that cash game poker isn't about winning or losing really. Obviously you want to make money, but long term, if you play well and make the right decisions, you will do just that.
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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