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Robb
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10-27-2009, 06:18 AM
Post subject: Timing Tells
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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The poll was for fun and only covered your view on Hero's timing tells. Consider:
A. Opponents give away tons of information with timing tells at the micros.
B. Opponent's timing tells are worthless at the micros since they're wrong so often. It's too hard to get a solid read on timing tells.
Discuss plz.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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i think using timing tells moreso for process of elimination can be pretty useful in spots at the micros. i think people go overboard when they're just like "HE HAD TO THINK BEFORE CALLING, SO THAT MEANS I CAN BARREL!"
a timing tell seldom means "his range is weak" or "his range is strong." it CAN often eliminate certain parts of their range to the point where there overall range isn't quite that strong or something like that, but it's still important to think through ranges and exactly what hand combos it eliminates and how that effects their overall range rather than just making blanket statements.
i don't know, i don't feel like coming up with an example right now, so i'll just keep it genearl.
btw, i think an underrated aspect of timing tells is getting notes in hands that were folded thanks to timing tells. e.g. if someone raises your cbet, you call and then lead the turn and they snap fold, you can take a note that it was a bluff with a fair bit of confidence. also if someone snap calls a cbet and then folds to a turn bet, you can feel confident that calling cbets with most of their range is their standard play.
/long, rambling, probably not very good post
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
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daeyeth
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 63
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It can backfire on you. I heard a tip to time all your bets/calls/raises so that your betting at the same time no matter what the hand and they won't know what you have, so I tried that (playing at 2NL). Well, it worked, but I'm not good enough to take advantage of what happened...in fact, it actually hurt me at my beginner's level. People started gave me absolutely no respect for any of my bets because they thought I was doing the timing to make it seem as if I had a hand.
So I think you need to know what you're doing if you use it because everyone notices what you're doing after a couple rotations, even in micro stakes.
As for tells on your opponent, I definitely think you can get reads on your opponent if you know they're not multi-tabling
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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I don't really worry about timing tells in my own game since I'm usually playing 8+ tables, but in my opponents, I notice that snap calls on a two tone (flush draw) flop TYPICALLY mean that they are on the draw. Obviously this isn't 100% accurate all the time, but I think its something thats pretty common that shows up quite a bit at the micros.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Quote:
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I multitable, so my decision times are randomized.
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they aren't... a 10 sec. delay might not mean anything, but an instant action does.
Timing tells are subtle, but they are important. Even the most massive fish realizes that when you insta-smash the pot button every street you probably aren't drawing or value betting thin.
Then there are totally obvious tells like requesting time before a raise after the flop... that's pretty much never a bluff.
Or if a fish c/ insta-calls the flop, the turn completes a draw and they're all-in a fraction of a second after the turn card hits... I don't need any more information to fold an overpair tbh.
Even when THEY multi-table, there are still lots of opportunities where you can get the actual time it takes them... like when they c-bet oop and you call... it's their turn again instantly, so whatever time it takes them to react, that's usually exactly the time it actually took them.
If you want to reduce it to the most basic: if someone doesn't watch their timing tells - very few do, they usually bet very fast when they have an easy decision and take their time with the more difficult ones... An easy decision could be a draw or a strong made hand for someone who never raises c-bets. against an instant action - especially by someone who's first to act, or if you checked or bet really fast is very rarely a medium strengh hand.
Then there are some game dynamic things - especially very short handed or HU, you can make feeesh stack off light when you just keep betting into them very quickly. They tend to try and keep up with your pace, but that drives them into making purely emotional decisions... this is also awesome against regs who just took a beat that they might have considered bad.
Don't just take all that stuff and try to apply it. Just watch out for it and see for yourself.
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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I find certain types of players, when they are the preflop raiser will check quicker on the flop when they miss than normal, especially when there are paint cards on board, a probe/steal bet usually works to take the pot away.
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I confess in quicksand
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
btw, i think an underrated aspect of timing tells is getting notes in hands that were folded thanks to timing tells. e.g. if someone raises your cbet, you call and then lead the turn and they snap fold, you can take a note that it was a bluff with a fair bit of confidence. also if someone snap calls a cbet and then folds to a turn bet, you can feel confident that calling cbets with most of their range is their standard play.
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That is a very good point. You can often take player notes even if the hand didn't go to showdown. I usually just add a question mark to those reads.
And you're right... the tendency is to go overboard with these things. Even if someones range really is weak, it doesn't mean they will fold!
Vineland... if the original raiser checks a Q+ high board, I'm pretty much auto-betting, and taking a note if he calls no matter what.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daeyeth
As for tells on your opponent, I definitely think you can get reads on your opponent if you know they're not multi-tabling
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I play on Full Tilt, and knowing the number of tables someone is sitting at is so easy to find out you can do it during a hand. Ctrl + F is the hotkey for "find player." Type the username in the box and hit ENTER. You will almost instantly see a list of tables where opp is playing. Most other sites have a similar feature.
I have found that timing tells are DIFFERENT depending upon how many tables someone is playing. But not nonexistent.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
I don't really worry about timing tells in my own game since I'm usually playing 8+ tables.
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I used to think this. I would bet you have some massive timing tells, especially on the turn/river and when involved with big hands. I sure did.
Most multitablers have ways of ID'ing tables that have non-standard hands in progress. So they (we) react more quickly to action on that table than when they have easy turn/river decisions. Insta-bets on the turn/river from a mass multitabler likely means he's pulled that table out his stack and is focused on his set and how he's gonna double through you.
If you're multitabling, think about what types of hands you concentrate on, and how quickly you respond to the action once you've decided upon your line. I did, and it sure was eye-opening how much information I was giving away. Happily, most of my opponents aren't capable of taking advantage. But removing those tells makes me much harder to read.
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Originally Posted by oskar
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I multitable, so my decision times are randomized.
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they aren't... a 10 sec. delay might not mean anything, but an instant action does. |
This is golden. NH oskar.
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Jason
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: TN
Posts: 883
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Timing tells have been invaluable to me. They can tell me what someone has or doesn't have. I agree that instant action can often mean something, but sometimes delays do too. One of the first tells I remember picking up was that if someone acted in a short or regular time length to be the PFR and then AFTER the flop waited a long time and checked, it usually meant weakness. They take their time to try to intimidate like they are weighing out the right amount to bet. If someone takes their time and check/calls your PFR and cbets on 2 streets on a drawy board and then auto-shoves a blank river, I've noticed that is often a bluff. If they had a good hand, why would they autoshove or not wait for you to bet first? Why would they never put in a raise or bet of their own? If you can contrast actions and put the pieces of the puzzle together, you can extract good information. I think about my own tells and use that as a basis for villain tells plus whatever I observe. No one piece of information is reliable by itself, but if you look out for information and see multiple occurrences, it can be reliable for specific villains. Plus, you can develop default timing lines for unknown villains based on the culmination of many villain tells.
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- Jason
 
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