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Tilt tilt and more tilt

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  1. #1

    Default Tilt tilt and more tilt

    I have a problem with tilt lol

    Was running deep tonight in the big $11, $65k on PS, about 400 left out of around 7000, sitting with about 30/40k and was a bit above the average stack. Was playin a nice solid game and keeping my cool, until I missed out on a hand that would have pushed me up around the 100k mark which would have given me a better chance of cashing big, $11k to the winner and so on, so not having won money in poker or gotten that close before I tend to get a little excited, I just lost the head and once I lost a few more chips I busted out pretty damn quickly, it's been a few times in tourneys I feel I have gotten close and ran well then just blew up, it is startin to annoy me, wondering whats the best way to deal with it and have other members on this board learned how to deal with it who could maybe give me some advice? I cashed around $25 and I am in profit for the night but I feel that it was a massive opportunity completely wasted due to my own stupidity.

    I have read several articles about tilt but it would be nice to hear some stories about how some more experience players have learned to deal with it
  2. #2
    why are you playing 11$ tourneys and 2nl cash. typical bankroll for mtts is 100 buyins or for 11$ buyins 1100$ which you would typically be 25 nl on
  3. #3
    Gambler ITT
  4. #4
    or to put it another way , you are learning playing 2nl , how do you think you will fare playing at 25nl with a much higher proportion of good regs and way less fish , and those fish are likely to have an idea what they are doing compared to the 2nl fish. by the time you get that deep in the tournament , the vast majority of players will know what they are doing.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    or to put it another way , you are learning playing 2nl , how do you think you will fare playing at 25nl with a much higher proportion of good regs and way less fish , and those fish are likely to have an idea what they are doing compared to the 2nl fish. by the time you get that deep in the tournament , the vast majority of players will know what they are doing.
    Whenever I want to play in a tourney that's higher than my bankroll allows (Which isn't often) I just put the extra cash in to cover it, I mean it's only about £7 or something, I would spend £7 quid on a bottle of bucky and I am off the drink so have the spare cash lying around, it's kind of like going on a night out and spending £100+ which I am not doing anymore, so if I want to take a shot at a tourney that's $11 buy in, instead of wasting money on alcohol or other things, it is nothing really when it's not eating into my actual bankroll which is still intact. I see no problem putting an extra $11 in once a month or so to have a shot at a bigger tourney with a higher pay out, in this case it payed off and I gained some good experience. If it is extra funds I have and it is separate from my serious bankroll I see no problem with it, I see where you are coming from and understand though but I wasn't paying for the tourney out of my bankroll

    I wouldn't do it if the tourney buy in was any higher than that tbh because that would be stupidity, would you rather go to a bar and spend £50+ on alcohol and a hangover or spend around £7 playing in a tourney for a bit of fun and have a sensible night in
    Last edited by MrFerguson91; 02-10-2015 at 08:43 PM.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    Gambler ITT
    Everyone who plays poker is a gambler lol
  7. #7
    your bankroll is your poker funds not what you have on an individual site. If you just stump up the money that money is part of your bankroll.The attitude that you are just doing it for fun and it doesn't matter and isn't part of your bankroll so doesn't matter is a fallacy that results in most people being big losers at poker and deluding themselves into believing themselves to be winning players beause the only consider the "normal" bankroll play. What happens to any winnings from these extra tournaments are they part of your bankroll, and what about the results , do you only include the wins or include all the tournaments.

    That is why Jyms said gambler, you are just taking a punt against better players and hoping to get lucky just like every other punter betting on dogs horses etc. When you are playing against people with poorer skills than you you are not gambling per se , you are investing into situations where you have a high probability of a profitable return.you are comparing your potential return with the odds at getting the return and deciding if each situation is profitable or not.By citing the 11k for a win you are falling into the trap every gambler falls into , you see the big numbers and ignore the fact that your have very little chance of winning that prize through your skill.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    your bankroll is your poker funds not what you have on an individual site. If you just stump up the money that money is part of your bankroll.The attitude that you are just doing it for fun and it doesn't matter and isn't part of your bankroll so doesn't matter is a fallacy that results in most people being big losers at poker and deluding themselves into believing themselves to be winning players beause the only consider the "normal" bankroll play. What happens to any winnings from these extra tournaments are they part of your bankroll, and what about the results , do you only include the wins or include all the tournaments.

    That is why Jyms said gambler, you are just taking a punt against better players and hoping to get lucky just like every other punter betting on dogs horses etc. When you are playing against people with poorer skills than you you are not gambling per se , you are investing into situations where you have a high probability of a profitable return.you are comparing your potential return with the odds at getting the return and deciding if each situation is profitable or not.By citing the 11k for a win you are falling into the trap every gambler falls into , you see the big numbers and ignore the fact that your have very little chance of winning that prize through your skill.
    Ah I see, Thanks Keith mate makes me realise how much of a novice I am at this, and sorry for that reply Jym.
    I'll take the advice on board, I am guessing I maybe got really lucky to have cashed in this one then.

    I'm here to learn that's what this forum is for, my bankroll atm is around $40 just the minimum amount now for 2nl cash games, although last night instead of entering a 2nl table I was playing 0.50c 9 man sng turbos which seemed to be working quite well for me.

    With the 100 buyin rule for tourneys I should essentially be playing $0.40 and down? until my bankroll can support higher buyins?
  9. #9
    One more thing I was wondering Keith if my bankroll is $40 I should only be playing 1 2nl table at a time is that right?

    The 20 BI rule confuses me when it comes to multi tabling, do you raise 20 to 40 if you want to play two tables etc? Or does it work differently
  10. #10
    play the number of tables that you feel comfortable with number of buyins for cash is advised for moving up/down. if you have proven that you can beat a level to a certain extent you can ignore the numbers. I.e most years I do a challenge running up a minute bankroll . I'm currently doing one on sky. started at christmas on sky and got 10£ of tourney tickets for the signup and 30% rakeback(needed since its 7.5% rake) converted those 4 tickets into £10 of cash playing double or nothings and then ground the £10 up . currently sitting just short of £200 all with out a deposit. Lowest stake at sky is 4nl so i was playing way outside BRM rules but standard of play was dire and started off playing two tables then three then 4 and occasionally 5 and occasionally played some 10nl.another £15 or so and i'll be properly rolled to play 10nl on sky .

    At the end of the day you have to justify your actions to yourself. Are you happy with playing more tables , can you keep up, are you happy to have the full bankroll on a site and all on the tables at once.DOwnsides of sky are the rake at 7.5%, hand historys are really hard to get at , and major huds respect sky's no HUD policy. Flip side is that lots of poor players on the site make up for the cons.

    [/QUOTE]

    As you can see from the graph theres still a fair bit of variance , but once i got through the initial stages where bad beats had a big effect and had reads on how people play at 4nl there ,the skill advantage ensures the profitability .Because of the no huds or hand historyies the graph is a result of a session being net result of each table played per day and is not on a per hand basis.
    Last edited by Keith; 02-11-2015 at 10:30 AM.
  11. #11
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFerguson91 View Post
    I have a problem with bankroll management lol
    Also relevant.

    Sticking to solid bankroll management with no excuses will help your tilt.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    play the number of tables that you feel comfortable with number of buyins for cash is advised for moving up/down. if you have proven that you can beat a level to a certain extent you can ignore the numbers. I.e most years I do a challenge running up a minute bankroll . I'm currently doing one on sky. started at christmas on sky and got 10£ of tourney tickets for the signup and 30% rakeback(needed since its 7.5% rake) converted those 4 tickets into £10 of cash playing double or nothings and then ground the £10 up . currently sitting just short of £200 all with out a deposit. Lowest stake at sky is 4nl so i was playing way outside BRM rules but standard of play was dire and started off playing two tables then three then 4 and occasionally 5 and occasionally played some 10nl.another £15 or so and i'll be properly rolled to play 10nl on sky .

    At the end of the day you have to justify your actions to yourself. Are you happy with playing more tables , can you keep up, are you happy to have the full bankroll on a site and all on the tables at once.DOwnsides of sky are the rake at 7.5%, hand historys are really hard to get at , and major huds respect sky's no HUD policy. Flip side is that lots of poor players on the site make up for the cons.

    As you can see from the graph theres still a fair bit of variance , but once i got through the initial stages where bad beats had a big effect and had reads on how people play at 4nl there ,the skill advantage ensures the profitability .Because of the no huds or hand historyies the graph is a result of a session being net result of each table played per day and is not on a per hand basis.[/QUOTE]

    Sounds good! Nice grinding! I have been reading so much about the micros and have realised that weak tight is the best strategy for them, will take me a lot of patience and waiting on the monsters but usually when you do get that monster you can double up, I think weak tight will work at 2nl and 5nl, then as I progress up the stakes change into a TAG style. But lets just concentrate on the 2nl for the moment!
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Also relevant.

    Sticking to solid bankroll management with no excuses will help your tilt.
    Will be from now on dude
  14. #14
    Hi

    Just reading this thread now and I have to agree bankroll managment is the most important thing. MrFerguson91 I think I've started the same time as you and I finally cracked $100. Stick to 2NL and play tight aggressive poker and you can build up your bankroll. When it comes to MTT stick with the lower limits and don't play them too often. MMT play is much different than cash table from what I read. If you can't cash the lower limits MTT then it will be extremely hard to cash the higher limits. There is a good $2.20 NL progressive super knockout tourney guarantee pool of $10,000 on PS if you want to try. If you can kick out some of the fish at the beginning you will win their bounty which would pay for your buy in of the tourney. Then you are freerolling to the money. MMT is something I only play with freerolls triple up at the beginning and sit out to cash as don't have the patience to play 3-4 hours just to cash. I don't win much but the small winning will add up over time.

    Good luck, see you on the felt
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    Hi

    Just reading this thread now and I have to agree bankroll managment is the most important thing. MrFerguson91 I think I've started the same time as you and I finally cracked $100. Stick to 2NL and play tight aggressive poker and you can build up your bankroll. When it comes to MTT stick with the lower limits and don't play them too often. MMT play is much different than cash table from what I read. If you can't cash the lower limits MTT then it will be extremely hard to cash the higher limits. There is a good $2.20 NL progressive super knockout tourney guarantee pool of $10,000 on PS if you want to try.
    Generally accepted figure for bankroll management in tourneys is 100 buyins , so this tourney conflicts with the statement that i bolded.
    If you can kick out some of the fish at the beginning you will win their bounty which would pay for your buy in of the tourney. Then you are freerolling to the money. MMT is something I only play with freerolls triple up at the beginning and sit out to cash as don't have the patience to play 3-4 hours just to cash.
    If you've tripled up , you have a stack size to put pressure on other fish so why not carry on and go after more bounties. Why sitout when you get dealt your premium hands and miss out on adding chips to your stack and bounties to your bankroll?
    I don't win much but the small winning will add up over time.
    lol ,whats the point ? you'll never learn how to play tourneys with that attitude and actually making any reasonable money will take forever. This is typical how the multiple freerollers play .Register to as many freerolls as they can and continue shoving all in every hand and they fluke some big stacks that cash. They'll never be any good at poker and will never make any serious money,why bother?
    Good luck, see you on the felt
  16. #16
    Hey there MrFerguson91,

    I've read over the thread and wanted to chime-in. I see that PJfan10 also posted, and it's nice to see newer posting members seeking advice from our vets who have so much experience in the poker realm.

    Regarding Tilt and Bankroll Management... I want to stress that this is just my opinion... I think it's something each player has to take 100% responsibility for. There are a ton of resources related to these two topics available on the Interwebs, but ultimately each player has to make an "executive decision" whether to tilt or stray from BR-management. Personally, I broke both rules plenty of times, especially when I was just getting started online way back... then at some point I changed my habits for the better.

    Bankroll management is subjective... in my opinion if someone wants to play "seriously" then strict adherence is a must. On the other hand, if a casual player with a reliable source of income wants to play a $55 MTT with a $55 bankroll each week.... well that makes sense to me too. It all depends on each individual circumstance.

    Tilt is a different beast altogether. You don't want to be playing poorly regardless of what your bankroll is. Even casual players are "in it to win it" I would think.

    Anyway, I hope you're able to make decisions that are more in-line with your "poker value system" going forward. Take heed to what the guys in this thread have posted... it's all great advice.

    Best of luck at the tables!

    -David
  17. #17
    Hi Keith,

    I agree $2.20 is still outside of MrFerguson BR but if he wants to try for a big prize every now and then $2.20 is much better than $11.

    When it comes to me playing freeroll MMT I'm happy to just bingo at the beginning, triple up and leave the tourney and make the money for my $.20-$.25. It only takes me 5 mins or less and my BR being so small every 5 times I make the money I know I'm adding $1 to my BR. I have no desire to grind MTT for hours JMHO.
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    Hi Keith,

    I agree $2.20 is still outside of MrFerguson BR but if he wants to try for a big prize every now and then $2.20 is much better than $11.

    When it comes to me playing freeroll MMT I'm happy to just bingo at the beginning, triple up and leave the tourney and make the money for my $.20-$.25. It only takes me 5 mins or less and my BR being so small every 5 times I make the money I know I'm adding $1 to my BR. I have no desire to grind MTT for hours JMHO.
    bankroll management def. good, but rules are also made to be broken (like my bankroll)

    dunno why you'd play like a donkey to get a stack early and sitout to min cash
    Id much rather play my best game even if I spend 3 hrs to bubble

    if you need $1 so bad I may send you one, but you have to stay out of my games lol
    forget that, you're always welcome to sit at my table,
    players like you help players like me win said events
    just deposit and stick with cash tbls PJ
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by dhubermex View Post
    Hey there MrFerguson91,

    I've read over the thread and wanted to chime-in. I see that PJfan10 also posted, and it's nice to see newer posting members seeking advice from our vets who have so much experience in the poker realm.

    Regarding Tilt and Bankroll Management... I want to stress that this is just my opinion... I think it's something each player has to take 100% responsibility for. There are a ton of resources related to these two topics available on the Interwebs, but ultimately each player has to make an "executive decision" whether to tilt or stray from BR-management. Personally, I broke both rules plenty of times, especially when I was just getting started online way back... then at some point I changed my habits for the better.

    Bankroll management is subjective... in my opinion if someone wants to play "seriously" then strict adherence is a must. On the other hand, if a casual player with a reliable source of income wants to play a $55 MTT with a $55 bankroll each week.... well that makes sense to me too. It all depends on each individual circumstance.

    Tilt is a different beast altogether. You don't want to be playing poorly regardless of what your bankroll is. Even casual players are "in it to win it" I would think.

    Anyway, I hope you're able to make decisions that are more in-line with your "poker value system" going forward. Take heed to what the guys in this thread have posted... it's all great advice.

    Best of luck at the tables!

    -David
    Thanks for the advice dude!
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    Hi

    Just reading this thread now and I have to agree bankroll managment is the most important thing. MrFerguson91 I think I've started the same time as you and I finally cracked $100. Stick to 2NL and play tight aggressive poker and you can build up your bankroll. When it comes to MTT stick with the lower limits and don't play them too often. MMT play is much different than cash table from what I read. If you can't cash the lower limits MTT then it will be extremely hard to cash the higher limits. There is a good $2.20 NL progressive super knockout tourney guarantee pool of $10,000 on PS if you want to try. If you can kick out some of the fish at the beginning you will win their bounty which would pay for your buy in of the tourney. Then you are freerolling to the money. MMT is something I only play with freerolls triple up at the beginning and sit out to cash as don't have the patience to play 3-4 hours just to cash. I don't win much but the small winning will add up over time.

    Good luck, see you on the felt
    Yeah I have played in the 2.20 before the progressive knockouts aren't really my thing although it is handy when you get your Buy in back by eliminating a few players
  21. #21
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFerguson91 View Post
    Was playin a nice solid game and keeping my cool, until I missed out on a hand that would have pushed me up around the 100k mark which would have given me a better chance of cashing big
    Try not to dwell on the amount of missed pots. Instead try to remember how each person played the hands.

    Once you muck your hand it's time to forget about your cards and concentrate on the way everyone is playing the remainder of the hand. Try to put people on hands and concentrate on the way different people play from different seats.
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Try not to dwell on the amount of missed pots. Instead try to remember how each person played the hands.

    Once you muck your hand it's time to forget about your cards and concentrate on the way everyone is playing the remainder of the hand. Try to put people on hands and concentrate on the way different people play from different seats.
    Will be doin from now on mate thanks!

    PS runs $250, $400, $750 tourneys every day for like $0.11 thats the only MTTS I have been playing in recently cause when I go into a 2NL cash game and make around $0.50 for example I can easily play in a few of these and it wont affect my BR So basically freerolling them instead
  23. #23
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    You're welcome. I have to remind myself about this sometimes. For example, almost every session a flop would have connected with my cards had I played them. It's a good time to check my emotions and make sure I'm watching the way people play the hand.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by MrFerguson91 View Post
    Will be doin from now on mate thanks!

    PS runs $250, $400, $750 tourneys every day for like $0.11 thats the only MTTS I have been playing in recently cause when I go into a 2NL cash game and make around $0.50 for example I can easily play in a few of these and it wont affect my BR So basically freerolling them instead
    That's only freerolling if you actually go to the 2NL table and make an extra 11c
  25. #25
    I think most tilt issues at the micros can be dealt with by just:

    1. Realising the fact that you are playing for fun, with peanuts.

    2. You're never going to be good enough to be a pro.

    Doesn't mean you shouldn't have fun trying to get better, it just means that 3 bad beats in a row really means nothing at all.....
  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by DJAbacus View Post
    I think most tilt issues at the micros can be dealt with by just:

    1. Realising the fact that you are playing for fun, with peanuts.

    2. You're never going to be good enough to be a pro.

    Doesn't mean you shouldn't have fun trying to get better, it just means that 3 bad beats in a row really means nothing at all.....
    Having the attitude that you would never be good enough to be a pro, is a losing attitude and it doesn't make sense to me.
    If I was to go play the game with that attitude I wouldn't get very far considering that's the goal I have in mind and with me bein only 23 it is more than achievable with lots of hard work lol

    Also, playing is fun and I enjoy it, which is the main thing but I would take 2nl as seriously as I would if I was playing 100nl and someday I will be there, that's the attitude I take towards the game. I wouldn't be on this forum if I thought of my bankroll and buy ins as peanuts
    Last edited by MrFerguson91; 02-26-2015 at 11:26 AM.
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Timlagor View Post
    That's only freerolling if you actually go to the 2NL table and make an extra 11c
    Yeah thats what I meant
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by MrFerguson91 View Post
    Having the attitude that you would never be good enough to be a pro, is a losing attitude and it doesn't make sense to me.
    If I was to go play the game with that attitude I wouldn't get very far considering that's the goal I have in mind and with me bein only 23 it is more than achievable with lots of hard work lol

    Also, playing is fun and I enjoy it, which is the main thing but I would take 2nl as seriously as I would if I was playing 100nl and someday I will be there, that's the attitude I take towards the game. I wouldn't be on this forum if I thought of my bankroll and buy ins as peanuts
    It's not a losing attitude to have realistic expectations.

    I think sometimes players, especially younger ones, start playing at 2nl and in such a rush to realise their ambition to be a pro player that every bad beat, cooler is a BI further away from achieving this and this creates the negative mindset that causes tilt. In other words don't hang your hopes for the future on some unrealistic and probably unachievable goal.

    The point about peanuts, is not that you shouldn't try hard to play the best possible, but if you make a mistake and players at 2nl (including myself) make many mistakes, remember you aren't losing very much from a financial point of view and in fact if you learn from your mistakes, if you could quantify knowledge gained, you are gaining far more than you lose anyway.

    The idea is to remain relaxed and buoyant at all times,while your BR goes up and down and up and down etc.

    Set an achievable and realistic goal, like: If my BR reaches $120, then I'll take at 10BI shot at 5nl (or whatever you feel comfortable with).
  29. #29
    It's good to have someone else to chat to who plays 2nl, that goal you had at the bottom there is the goal I am heading for at the minute anyway was wanting to hit $120 then try 5nl and if I can beat that aim for $300 and move to 10nl and so on. Do you always play snap 2nl or would you play regular cash tables as well? Cheers for the advice dude
  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by MrFerguson91 View Post
    It's good to have someone else to chat to who plays 2nl, that goal you had at the bottom there is the goal I am heading for at the minute anyway was wanting to hit $120 then try 5nl and if I can beat that aim for $300 and move to 10nl and so on. Do you always play snap 2nl or would you play regular cash tables as well? Cheers for the advice dude
    I have to be honest here. I can't get on with reg tables. I try to play 2/3 tables, sit around folding for 10 mins then have to deal with 3 tricky spots all at the same time and end of timing out on tables. Also I don't like f88king about with table selection constantly which I find really annoying. It's great to have the insta stats in cash games, cos it's easier to make good decisions but I kind of just love Snap. Played zoom. Too nitty and too many players in the pool. Snap is a fairly small pool and pretty fishy. I have a chance. Players bet their hand. I'm building up stats in a geeky way. I reckon around 25K hands I will have all the regs nailed down and the rest will be loose passive or weak nits or total fish.

    Skype me anytime...DJAbacus...and we can talk 2nl...I'm a Stay at home dad who needs games like Chess and Poker to stimulate his brain in between all the poop I have to deal with.

    Good luck at the tables....and btw...forget about 10nl...we haven't got to 5nl yet..
  31. #31
    Late reply due to a very messy weekend haha can't play while I am feelin this fragile just got the one table open at 2nl will be another few days until I recover from that one

    I would generally play 1 table then if I make it to $4 I open another, if that table does well I open another etc.
    I find when I open up 6 tables at once for example I can't fully concentrate on them all at the same time, Yet I would rather gradually build up the tables I am playing at one by one if that makes sense.

    I'm aiming to get to 5nl by the summer hopefully, made Chrome on Pokerstars last month which I am happy about will try to make it every month now, then when I get to 5nl aim for silver.

    Like a bit of Chess myself played it from when I was pretty young, strange how a lot of poker players enjoy playing Chess as well, haven't played it in a while but just concentrating on the poker haha

    I think I have a Skype account but havn't been on it in a year or so will have to figure out my log in details.

    Same to you dude, I am sure we will be following each others progress through this as well, good luck
  32. #32
    If you losing concentration playing 6 tables then I recommend playing less tables. I can only focus playing 2 tables and I'm sure there are many here that play more. Find a limit your comfortable with and stick with it. JMHO
  33. #33
    Yeah that's what I was sayin man I don't play 6 anymore I start with 1 or 2 and sometimes 3 just as it is manageable compared to 6
  34. #34
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    I'm going to chime into this thread with a few words of sound advice on a few things I am reading here.

    First, tilt is the single biggest destroyer of bankrolls, poker psyches and poker play. I'm sitting here writing this reply, glancing to the right of my monitors. I have two poker books sitting on my desk [and a bunch of poker magazines] as I type. The important book is The Poker Mindset by Taylor and Hilger*.

    The Poker Mindset will fix a lot of your problems if you take it's words to heart. I'm not here to sell a book. Tilt, however, is too big a leak and sometimes people need help and resources to curtail it. It has a chapter on bankroll that incorporates the perils of tilt within it.

    Second, proper bankroll management is necessary, otherwise you are just playing to play. There are many different opinions on what a proper bankroll is for each limit, no-limit, SnG and tournament buy-in and stake, but the underlying fact is that all of them are targeted to helping players understand the importance of following one. Following proper bankroll management will almost always ensure that a decent player never goes broke. Built into each are guidelines for moving up and down limits as well as tournaments and SnGs. This doesn't mean you can't take an occasional shot at a higher tournament or limit, but that you really need to know the consequences of doing so and also the ramifications of doing so on your bankroll if you happen to fail the endeavor.

    If you are rolled for $2.20 tournaments, an occasional $4.40 or $5.50 [maybe once a month or every other month] is OK. Your $220 bankroll can take that occasional hit. The $4.40 buy-in represents 2% of your bankroll. What we are arguing against is taking a chance on an $11 buy-in as that is 5% of your bankroll. That's a big hit.

    Being an American, I've been out of the European market for far too long to rightfully remember the perks of PokerStars or the other Euro-sites. However, since I now play on Bovada, I have the ability to convert my points there into tournament tickets. I'm rolled to play as high as $5.50 in tournaments, although I usually play NL and FL cash. I tend to stockpile $2.20 to $16.50 tickets for the inevitable round of tournaments I get the bug to play. If any of your sites allow this option then that is the ticket to you taking shots at higher tournaments. Play within your bankroll and trade in points for tournament tickets and use those to take your shots at higher buy-ins. This way you won't be affecting your bankroll and, more importantly, you should never feel the pinch of playing scared or feeling you have to make bad decisions based on the bankroll percentage you have invested.

    Good luck!

    *Disclaimer: I know Ian Taylor and Matthew Hilger personally. I worked for Matt for 6 years. I haven't found a better book addressing tilt and setting oneself up for the right mental attitude than this one.
  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piscivorous View Post
    *Disclaimer: I know Ian Taylor and Matthew Hilger personally. I worked for Matt for 6 years. I haven't found a better book addressing tilt and setting oneself up for the right mental attitude than this one.
    I agree about The Poker Mindset but I have a disclaimer of my own since Tyson and I bought Matthew's ITH site.
  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Piscivorous View Post
    I'm going to chime into this thread with a few words of sound advice on a few things I am reading here.

    First, tilt is the single biggest destroyer of bankrolls, poker psyches and poker play. I'm sitting here writing this reply, glancing to the right of my monitors. I have two poker books sitting on my desk [and a bunch of poker magazines] as I type. The important book is The Poker Mindset by Taylor and Hilger*.

    The Poker Mindset will fix a lot of your problems if you take it's words to heart. I'm not here to sell a book. Tilt, however, is too big a leak and sometimes people need help and resources to curtail it. It has a chapter on bankroll that incorporates the perils of tilt within it.

    Second, proper bankroll management is necessary, otherwise you are just playing to play. There are many different opinions on what a proper bankroll is for each limit, no-limit, SnG and tournament buy-in and stake, but the underlying fact is that all of them are targeted to helping players understand the importance of following one. Following proper bankroll management will almost always ensure that a decent player never goes broke. Built into each are guidelines for moving up and down limits as well as tournaments and SnGs. This doesn't mean you can't take an occasional shot at a higher tournament or limit, but that you really need to know the consequences of doing so and also the ramifications of doing so on your bankroll if you happen to fail the endeavor.

    If you are rolled for $2.20 tournaments, an occasional $4.40 or $5.50 [maybe once a month or every other month] is OK. Your $220 bankroll can take that occasional hit. The $4.40 buy-in represents 2% of your bankroll. What we are arguing against is taking a chance on an $11 buy-in as that is 5% of your bankroll. That's a big hit.

    Being an American, I've been out of the European market for far too long to rightfully remember the perks of PokerStars or the other Euro-sites. However, since I now play on Bovada, I have the ability to convert my points there into tournament tickets. I'm rolled to play as high as $5.50 in tournaments, although I usually play NL and FL cash. I tend to stockpile $2.20 to $16.50 tickets for the inevitable round of tournaments I get the bug to play. If any of your sites allow this option then that is the ticket to you taking shots at higher tournaments. Play within your bankroll and trade in points for tournament tickets and use those to take your shots at higher buy-ins. This way you won't be affecting your bankroll and, more importantly, you should never feel the pinch of playing scared or feeling you have to make bad decisions based on the bankroll percentage you have invested.

    Good luck!

    *Disclaimer: I know Ian Taylor and Matthew Hilger personally. I worked for Matt for 6 years. I haven't found a better book addressing tilt and setting oneself up for the right mental attitude than this one.
    Thanks for the reply dude some good info there, will have a look into the book! Working my way through SuperSystem here and takin some time off from the tables to study the game a bit more just
  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    If you losing concentration playing 6 tables then I recommend playing less tables. I can only focus playing 2 tables and I'm sure there are many here that play more. Find a limit your comfortable with and stick with it. JMHO
    An interesting thing occurred to me. In the past, I was only comfortably three tabling cash games. Right now, I play on two sites primarily - WPN and BetOnline. WPN has a timebank and is more grinder/pro friendly so it actually gives you a chance to sit and tank on a play. BetOnline is rec friendly and a gambler's site and has no timebank. From playing thousands of hands this month over at BetOnline, I've gotten really good at multitabling and learning how to tighten my ranges a bit and look for more nuttish hands when I'm playing more tables. Now, when I go on WPN, I can easily 4 table with absolutely no rush.
  38. #38
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    Here's a pretty good read from my most recent strategy article that will help: http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-s...-players-25560
  39. #39
    I think that anyone that plays poker, specially in the beggining, will tilt easilly. It takes part of the knowledge of poker, when we are in learning phase.
    With the developing of our play we will note that we are more calm and tilt is more avoided. Nevertheless, we will have a bad beat or a wrong bluff or other thing that could takes us our focus and perhaps origin a tilt on us: if that situation had put us out of a tournament, well we have to understand what runs bad to avoid it in future tables; if that situation does not means the end of the tourney for us we have to take note of what hapens and just think in it when the tournament ends because and continue playing completly focus!
    I know that is easy to writte this and hardest to aply it on tables but is a question of logic: we have to stay focus on the hands that will come and not focus on the hands that pass!!!
  40. #40
    Just experience I am guessin is best then, can only tilt so much before you get fed up and learn to just deal with it ha ha
  41. #41
    Hi I am also currently playing 2NL on stars. I was playing 5NL a month ago, but cashed out most of my money and left 50$. Now I have 148$ and I'm planning to play with 40bb at 5NL once my bank gets to 200$.
    I would suggest you to have at least 70 BI for 5NL, don't rush into higher limits
  42. #42
    I don't even bother with my 'green line' anymore. That line affects my BR of course, but that will take care of itself over time. I'm only interested in my orange line so if I jam with AA PF and get called, then I'm winning no matter what the outcome. This mentality has reduced any tilt by at least 50%.
  43. #43
    you do realize that you are depressing your winrate playing with 40bb? you can also argue you are also depressing your winrate playing on stars . 70 buyins is crazy nitty tight bankroll management
  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    you do realize that you are depressing your winrate playing with 40bb? you can also argue you are also depressing your winrate playing on stars . 70 buyins is crazy nitty tight bankroll management
    Let me ask you something: On BetOnline (extremely soft) I'm destroying 6NL. No HUDs so I don't have the exact BB/100 but I'll work it out later. It's way north of 25bb/100.

    How much of a bankroll would you think I'd need before I step up to 10NL on the same site? It seems like half the players there are the same ones from 6NL and I mean...is 25 BI's enough to take a shot? 30?

    Thanks
  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    you do realize that you are depressing your winrate playing with 40bb? you can also argue you are also depressing your winrate playing on stars . 70 buyins is crazy nitty tight bankroll management
    Why would I depress my win rate playing shortstack? I know it has more variance, and that means I should have more buy ins. Do you really think 70 BI is really nitty? I now have 159$ had a great session today, but I'm still playing 2NL but BSS. My plan is to try 5NL SSS once I have 200$, because I want to have 100 BI due to higher variance playing shortstack. I'm feeling comfortable with that amount of buy ins, but do you actually think It would be better to have less BI in these levels? I actually feel like I'm destroying 2NL, I don't have a HUD, but I should have played around 20K hands and I won like 50$ just con cash games. This is about 12,5bb/100. This is only an estimation, and I know 20K hands is a very small sample. And also, I started playing 5NL a month ago but went back to 2NL which I felt I crushed it before, but I cashed out money, and my remaining bank was too small to continue in 5NL. So that's why I went back to 2NL. Do you really advice me Keith to try 5NL? I would feel comfortable playing shortstack, because if I play bigstack at 5NL I would have just over 30 BI, and I really feel comfortable playing with 40bb, I have no problem, I just adapt to the table, I don't set mine and play more aggressive.

    Any advice would be appreciated, I see you know a lot about this subject and you give good advice. Thanks in advance
    Last edited by matiusaa; 04-04-2015 at 02:18 AM.
  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    Why would I depress my win rate playing shortstack?
    The main reason is that you are limiting the amount that you can win ,and limiting the number of times your opponents can make mistakes because they have less decisions to make before effective stacks are in the pot. Fully stacked the river decisons will be for larger amounts of money and you will have more fold equity as a result.


    I know it has more variance, and that means I should have more buy ins.
    Over the years i have done many bank roll challenges running up a minute sum to a decent bankroll. At xmas i registered on sky poker and got £10 of tournament tickets.Played 4 SNGs with them and converted them into cash and then half stacked 4nl (lowest stake there) on 2-3 tables initially adding more tables up to 4 as bankroll got to £20 and then increased buyins up to £4 around the £30 bankroll. Got it up to ~£240 in about a month. When your skill level exceeds that of your opponents you want to be able to win as much as you can.

    Repeating it again now , 25th of march registered at unibet and got a £10 (12 euro in the poker client) cash game ticket for signing up through my affiliate. Clearance requirement for that ticket was to see 750 flops. By the time i completed the 750 flops and released the value of that ticket into the cashier I had run it up to 69euros in 4-5 days. maximising the player missions and promotions meant that i also scooped 50euros of cash game tickets yesterday, have a 10£ risk free sports bet ticket as well and 15 euros of MTT tickets and 94 euros in the cashier making a pseudo bankroll of 170 euros in 10 days , and that includes playing the FTR FTOPs main event qualifier and winning the 1000$ buyin and playing the main event as well so effectively 8 days of play.Again did it the same way half stacking to minimise the variance when roll was really short and giving myself more buyins and then increasing the number of tables and buyins to maximise the amount i could win.

    Unibet has lots of people playing 1/2 stacked ,and they can generally be categorized as bad . they want to limit the amount that they can lose . HUDs are banned at both sky and unibet,and unibet allows you to have up to 5 player identities that you can switch between in the client and you can't make notes on players in the client either .As you can see from the screen shot that was when i was coming close to completing the cash game tickets requirement of 750 flops seen. Add up the amounts on the tables and the amount left on the cash game ticket and you will get 68euros. I haven't deposited either so that was done without any deposit bonus to pad it . Assuming 30%ish VPIP and allowing for BB etc it probably means ~ 2500 hands or 1725 bb won in 2500 hands or 69bb/100 winrate and that will have been depressed as well from playing half stacked because of the minute bankroll. As you can see from the screenshots i wasn't ratholing when i doubled up i played really deepstacked by staying on the tables and letting the fish reload and exploiting the leaks i saw them have.
    This was on the second days play , had 19euros on the ticket and had bought into these two tables for 2 euros on each table. left hand table bulldog had donated those big stacks to the other players. I finished the left hand table eventually with ~ 25 euros


    This is why i said that playing at stars can limit your winrate as well. Sites like sky and unibet have lots of fish, sky from having dedicated poker channels on the tv platform to advertise to people sat at home and unibet as its a big sportsbook so lots of people gambling off their winning s on the poker tables without a clue how to play poker properly.The lack of HUDs and rakeback and hand histories keeps the mass tabling HUD using regs away leaving a really fishy site for people willing to put up with the downsides of the software to win at a rate that they could never hope to achieve on stars.
    Do you really think 70 BI is really nitty? I now have 159$ had a great session today, but I'm still playing 2NL but BSS. My plan is to try 5NL SSS once I have 200$, because I want to have 100 BI due to higher variance playing shortstack. I'm feeling comfortable with that amount of buy ins, but do you actually think It would be better to have less BI in these levels? I actually feel like I'm destroying 2NL, I don't have a HUD, but I should have played around 20K hands and I won like 50$ just con cash games. This is about 12,5bb/100. This is only an estimation, and I know 20K hands is a very small sample. And also, I started playing 5NL a month ago but went back to 2NL which I felt I crushed it before, but I cashed out money, and my remaining bank was too small to continue in 5NL. So that's why I went back to 2NL. Do you really advice me Keith to try 5NL?
    you are thinking of moving up to 10nl at $200 playing 40bbs, my plan was to move up to 10 nl 100bbs at 200 euros .I actually played 10nl half stacked the last two days of march as there were 200euro cash game tickets available for everyone at a winning table in the prize promotion that unibet were running ,lost some money with QQvs AA allin pre but in term of EV it was worth it just to have a shot at getting that 200euro cash game ticket. Having won the 5*10nl cash game tickets last night it will probably mean that i move up earlier or may continue playing tables of 4nl and 1 tables on the cash game ticket each night as they expire after a week of not playing them or may just see one flop which each ticket to keep them alive until i'm rolled for 10nl. Whatever i'm moving up when bankroll hits 200 with a 6 buyin shot and move back down if variance bites.

    I would feel comfortable playing shortstack, because if I play bigstack at 5NL I would have just over 30 BI, and I really feel comfortable playing with 40bb, I have no problem, I just adapt to the table, I don't set mine and play more aggressive.

    Any advice would be appreciated, I see you know a lot about this subject and you give good advice. Thanks in advance
    you can't set mine profitably with a 40bb stack, you don't get paid off enough so you need 15-20 multiplier to break even and for a 3bb raise you don't have that available.
  47. #47
    used my risk free 10£ bet up that i won as part of a promo last month on unibet


    so another 12 euros in the bankroll. The promo ticket was actually a real con. small print said that bets had to be at 1.4 and risk free means that a £10 bonus is credited back and has to be wagered 3 times on bets at 1.4 odds before it can be withdrawn. call me a cynic but that sure as hell isn't risk free especially as the original £10 comes out of bankroll.

    What it does show though is that you should take advantage of whatever promos are going at the sites you play.
  48. #48
    just to ram home the message about playing shortstacked hampers your winrate just as playing on stars can when there are some really soft reliable sites available for ROW players , heres this afternoons session. picture shows cash balance after buying into the tables

    had another table tat had closed but balanced hadn't updated with 11euros on it so end of session cashier looked like


    thats all from new account 11 days ago with no deposit, and grinding up the 10 euro ticket i got on signup. one of those days the site was down , and two nights were tied up playing the FTOPs ME qualifer and main event. In effect its 8 days and still another 50 euros of cash game tickets to be added on tuesday for the promo i won on saturday.Technically it means that i am now rolled for 10nl in a fraction over a week. Those of you sticking to stars etc and small winrates ....question why you are still doing it.
  49. #49
    Haven't been on in a while just reading through all the posts nice advice guys, still grinding away here at the micros but bankroll is building nicely, took a shot at a $4.50 180 SnG 2 nights ago and came 5th was busted out with my AK against A10, but for 5th i got $45 so that was a good boost

    Bankroll is currently $66 and once I hit $100 or $120 I think I will move up to $5NL.

    Will keep givin updates on my progress

    That unibet software looks really nice
  50. #50
    Hey if I were you I would put max limits on sits and tournaments and cash so you don't play outside your bankroll management. There's an option is stars called safe play or safe game I think (don't know the exact translation from spanish to english), check it out and apply limits. Stars won't let you play in higher limits that you auto-impose and you have to wait 24hs if you happen to eliminate them or make them higher, but if you lower them its instant. I use it and it really helps me to play inside bank limits, especially when I tilt.
  51. #51
    Sounds like a good idea man I will have a look later on tonight when I get home from work and put the limits on I have learnt from bad experience not to go over my limits anymore but it will be great to put on to make sure I don't, Currently on $90, so close to moving up to 5NL
  52. #52
    Does anyone know how I do this on Pokerstars I can't find any options
  53. #53
    Restricting cash game table limits and tournament limits:

    Setting table limits and tournament limits provide individual players with an opportunity to control their spending by limiting themselves from playing certain table limit stakes, as well as tournament buy in limits. Go to the lobby, choose Tools from the menu on the right, then select ‘Responsible Gaming’ and ‘Restrict Table Limit’ or ‘Restrict Tournament limit’. You can block yourself from playing a specific game by setting your limit to ‘Don’t play’.
  54. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    Restricting cash game table limits and tournament limits:

    Setting table limits and tournament limits provide individual players with an opportunity to control their spending by limiting themselves from playing certain table limit stakes, as well as tournament buy in limits. Go to the lobby, choose Tools from the menu on the right, then select ‘Responsible Gaming’ and ‘Restrict Table Limit’ or ‘Restrict Tournament limit’. You can block yourself from playing a specific game by setting your limit to ‘Don’t play’.
    Thanks Keith
  55. #55
    don't eat chocolate, drink more water! you will have more concentration..
  56. #56
    Havn't ate chocolate in weeks now
    Last edited by MrFerguson91; 05-28-2015 at 10:48 AM.
  57. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by MrFerguson91 View Post
    Whenever I want to play in a tourney that's higher than my bankroll allows (Which isn't often) I just put the extra cash in to cover it, I mean it's only about £7 or something, I would spend £7 quid on a bottle of bucky and I am off the drink so have the spare cash lying around, it's kind of like going on a night out and spending £100+ which I am not doing anymore, so if I want to take a shot at a tourney that's $11 buy in, instead of wasting money on alcohol or other things, it is nothing really when it's not eating into my actual bankroll which is still intact. I see no problem putting an extra $11 in once a month or so to have a shot at a bigger tourney with a higher pay out, in this case it payed off and I gained some good experience. If it is extra funds I have and it is separate from my serious bankroll I see no problem with it, I see where you are coming from and understand though but I wasn't paying for the tourney out of my bankroll

    I wouldn't do it if the tourney buy in was any higher than that tbh because that would be stupidity, would you rather go to a bar and spend £50+ on alcohol and a hangover or spend around £7 playing in a tourney for a bit of fun and have a sensible night in
    I think the "£7 quid on a bottle of bucky" quote didn't get enough love!
  58. #58
  59. #59
    hahahaha The mighty Buckfast, I'm not sure if Americans have access to it maybe someone can confirm if they do or not, Are you from Bangor in Northern Ireland?

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