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Three KK hands ($10NL).

  
 
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Rage2100
Old 07-11-2009, 04:36 PM     Post subject: Three KK hands ($10NL). #1 (permalink)  
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 These are three KK hands from yesterday.

Hand 1: Button was 42/7 over 69 hands. Do I just check the river or bet again? Checking seems to say I don't have the Q, but I'm not sure what he's been calling with, so he may pay off a smallish bet with a worse hand. If he has a decent hand without a Q, he may check behind.
Hand 2: UTG+1 was 85/24 over 34 hands. Is this a check/fold on the river?
Hand 3: Button was 52/8 over 48 hands. SB was 64/11 over 53 hands. For about the last ten hands, these two had been abusing each other in the chat window, and playing almost every pot together. I was pretty sure all their chips were going in the pot, given the action so far. Is folding on the flop too tight?


-----Hand 1-----
Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10)

Hero: ($15.33)
UTG+1: ($18.48)
CO: ($7.40)
Button: ($14.83)
SB: ($6.48)
BB: ($8.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K , K .
Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, CO calls $0.40, Button calls $0.40, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.70) T , 4 , K (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.40, 1 fold, Button calls $1.40, 1 fold

Turn: ($4.50) J (2 players)
Hero bets $3, Button calls $3

River: ($10.50) 9 (2 players)
Hero ??


-----Hand 2-----
Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10)

Hero: ($22.90)
UTG+1: ($11.06)
CO: ($4.33)
Button: ($11.57)
SB: ($11.90)
BB: ($13.73)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K , K .
Hero raises to $0.40, UTG+1 calls $0.40, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.95) 2 , 3 , 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, UTG+1 calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.35) T (2 players)
Hero bets $1.70, UTG+1 calls $1.70

River: ($5.75) 5 (2 players)
Hero ??


-----Hand 3-----
Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10)

UTG: ($31.96)
Button: ($20.11)
SB: ($8.65)
Hero: ($25.16)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K , K .
1 fold, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.50, Button calls $0.40, SB calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.50) 5 , 9 , 8 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.20, Button raises to $2.40, SB calls $2.40, Hero ??
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surviva316
Old 07-11-2009, 04:57 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 hand one is pretty sick 'cause it's 150bb. but you gotta bet more on the turn because it's so wet and there are so many two pair/TPTK type hands in his range. anyway, though, the river is still a shove because he only has like AQ, QJ and Q9 in his range so KJ, JT type hands make up more than 1/3 of his range. EDIT: AQ, etc are the only Q's in his range i mean.

hand two is a bet/fold i'm pretty sure. kind depends on if he would 3bet JJ and QQ, but this fish def calls 3 streets with T9+

hand 3: ugh i don't even know. 3-way pots when two players are demonstrating strength (especially when they're both fish) is prolly a leak for me. i can't see folding this on the flop but you pretty much have to shove if you're not gonna fold because there are so many draws that can complete. it sucks 'cause BU has like 98+ here.
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Robb
Old 07-11-2009, 05:56 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 These spots all SUCK, rage, lol. I'm stacking off in Hand 1 and hating myself. I'm shutting down on Hand 2 and hating myself even more. Then I'm shoving in Hand 3 and ready to slit my wrist if I lose a third time.

FWIW, all three spots are pretty close. Do your best with your reads and don't get too results oriented.
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JoeHaw
Old 07-12-2009, 02:12 AM #4 (permalink)  
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why cant we c/c or b/f hand 1 instead of shoving?

spr?
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jyms
Old 07-12-2009, 02:28 AM #5 (permalink)  
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golfguy37
Old 07-12-2009, 03:11 AM #6 (permalink)  
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1) b/f the river
2) I would probably c/f because his range consists of a lot of Aces
3) call flop bet, your probably ahead
 
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Rage2100
Old 07-12-2009, 04:47 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 surviva and Robb, could you explain a little more why stacking off on the river is correct in Hand 1? Is it because we both have around $10 behind, with $10.50 already in the pot? I can sort of understand this, as any sort of bet on the river that gets raised, would commit our chips anyway, so we may as well just put it all in. Do you not think Villain may fold to an all-in though, where he may call a $5 bet with something like two pair? I don't know, this hand confuses me!
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surviva316
Old 07-12-2009, 05:36 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 rereading my own thread, they're actually extremely similar. the biggest difference just being that we're trying to get value out of two pair type hands as opposed to overpairs:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es-t87039.html

sorry if i say anything that's obvious but i'm just gonna go through the whole logic as i see it:

i don't think it's ever right to fold here, even if we check and he pushes because we only need to beat 33% of his range, and he's a brainless villain who's capable of shoving here with two pair (and there are a lot of them in his range), spazzing out with AK or even turning crap like AJ into a bluff.

better hands essentially never check behind here (though they'll small bet every once in a while), while a lot of worst hands will call if we bet into them. so checking isn't gonna save us much money for the times that we're up against hands that beat us, and we have an opportunity to extract a good bit of money for the times that we're up against something we beat.

so leading out is the best here based on the two past paragraphs as premises.

now for the most abstract part, and the part you're asking about most specifically, what bet size gets you the best value for your hand. based on paragraph one, b/f is not a good option here (which should be obvious), so assuming that villain shoves over with better hands if we bet small a vast majority of the time, we're not saving ourselves much money by betting smaller for the times we're up against better hands. so the question really boils down to if we're getting the most value against hands that we beat by shoving. he would have to fold 30% more often to a 10.03 than a $7 bet for it to be worth it to bet smaller, and i think that the number is closer to 10-15%.

this number might be a bit higher in the world of SnG's but there's a bit less of a psychological block against a stack being crippled or being stacked in cash games. if we want to avoid that psychological block of being stacked you can bet like 9.50, but missing out on 3/10 of a BI in value is just too much to pass up on.

might seem like a kinda roundabout way to explain my thought process, but i figured i'd just share my whole thought process
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Robb
Old 07-12-2009, 06:07 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rage2100
surviva and Robb, could you explain a little more why stacking off on the river is correct in Hand 1? Is it because we both have around $10 behind, with $10.50 already in the pot? I can sort of understand this, as any sort of bet on the river that gets raised, would commit our chips anyway, so we may as well just put it all in. Do you not think Villain may fold to an all-in though, where he may call a $5 bet with something like two pair? I don't know, this hand confuses me!
I'm not saying shove on Hand 1, but I'm willing to stack off her 'cuz while any Qx hand beats us (and they're likely), I feel like at least 1/3 of his range is 2 pair hands or worse, say one pair combos chasing a flush draw, etc. Again, it's close.

I probably check/call which is generally our best plan when we have showdown value on the river but lots of nut hands are out against us. This avoids making a bet only better hands will ever call. And there's no fold equity (against anything we beat) here anyway.
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nish81
Old 07-12-2009, 07:08 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
might seem like a kinda roundabout way to explain my thought process, but i figured i'd just share my whole thought process
Reading this, you just gave me a sort of 'AHA' moment, so thank you very much for explaining your thought process

(basically how the thought process at the table should basically be about equity and ranges, and how I should be relating that to the action I choose to take and maximising ev - probably sounds really simple, but I guess the simple things matter a lot)
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

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Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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Robb
Old 07-12-2009, 07:12 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
might seem like a kinda roundabout way to explain my thought process, but i figured i'd just share my whole thought process
Reading this, you just gave me a sort of 'AHA' moment, so thank you very much for explaining your thought process

(basically how the thought process at the table should basically be about equity and ranges, and how I should be relating that to the action I choose to take and maximising ev - probably sounds really simple, but I guess the simple things matter a lot)
It's only simple after you understand it
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Micro2Macro
Old 07-12-2009, 09:53 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 The river in H1 should clearly not be bet. Check to induce, but tank a little before you do to make it look like you're weak. Essentially all you have is a bluff catcher, so TPTK pretty much plays the same as your set.

In H2 your river decision will depend on how passive he is I guess

In H3 just calling seems bad, I don't think I can fold vs these two idiots who will showdown a ton of wacky stuff, I value shove.
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Old 07-13-2009, 09:32 AM #13 (permalink)  
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you're all high
block bet hand 1 for one third pot and fold to a raise
hope for two pair to call
Who came up with the idea that a 42/7 fish would bluff here?

hand 2 is an obvious c/f a fish will have an ace or 6 here all day
hand 3 is a call
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Micro2Macro
Old 07-13-2009, 08:27 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 hah, I gotta use block bets more vs fish...nh iopq
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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