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Thread about marginal value hands vs donks/stations

  
 
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Carroters
Old 03-26-2009, 07:59 PM     Post subject: Thread about marginal value hands vs donks/stations #1 (permalink)  
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 I'll start with this example hand from today's session It got me thinking that this spot comes up a lot, and thought we could get some discussion on what the best line is.

Villain in this example is 64/12/1.5 over a 230 hand sample.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($19.40)
MP ($19.70)
Hero (CO) ($32.49)
Button ($34.10)
SB ($22.73)
BB ($20.20)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q
2 folds, Hero bets $0.70, 1 fold, SB calls $0.60, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.60) 5, 7, K (2 players)
SB checks

Total pot: $1.60


So we have a few options in this case. We'll assume villain check/calls at all given oppertunity here as he will most often as this hand plays out since he's a huge station. We'll also assume the turn and river are relatively blank.

A. We c bet the flop, check the turn behind and look to value bet the river if checked to.

B. We check the flop behind, make a delayed c bet on the turn, and look for 2 streets of value by betting the river also.

C. We bet the flop and the turn for value and plan to check back the river. Here we get the maximum value out of draws.

I've assumed 3 streets of value is too thin here even vs a station, but there may be an argument for this vs some VERY bad players.

Thoughts?

 
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surviva316
Old 03-26-2009, 08:48 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 i assume you mean he check/calls/folds. if he check/calls everything then Vbetting every street is the answer.
otherwise, if this board hadn't been two-toned then i'm actually checking a street to underrepresent my hand (calling stations love the logic of "well there's no way that deuce helped him so he has to be bluffing). i'm interested to hear feedback on this play because i know that there are a lot of calls we can get here from Ax's (i guess chasing there draw to top pair lol). also this probably doesn't have the best effects on merging our ranges here, but this might not be so bad if you change your play against more aggressive or tighter players.
Since the flop is two-toned i'm easily betting here. not as protection, but because i know that a calling station is calling here with any two clubs, so i'm getting great value with a split pair. if the club hits the turn: if i don't have a club draw of my own (which you would in your scenario) then i'm checking for a river to underrepresent my hand and extract on the river (b/f) if i DO have a club (which you do in this scenario) i'll leave this one up to the experts. i feel like a bet turns this hand into a semi-bluff, but i may just be giving our opponent WAY too much credit
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bjsaust
Old 03-27-2009, 01:06 AM #3 (permalink)  
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In a case where we have a decent hand v's someone who will call with an enormous range of hands, I prefer just to bet lots. Imo getting called 3 streets and him having a K would be a cooler. I may decide not to bet river if I think he's more likely to have had a draw, but still often bet it anyway. Just how big of a station he is matters there.
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Illfavor
Old 03-27-2009, 01:39 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
In a case where we have a decent hand v's someone who will call with an enormous range of hands, I prefer just to bet lots. Imo getting called 3 streets and him having a K would be a cooler. I may decide not to bet river if I think he's more likely to have had a draw, but still often bet it anyway. Just how big of a station he is matters there.
This.

I tend to bet fearlessly vs. stations. Sure, we aren't looking to stack off but we are rarely towning ourselves.
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Carroters
Old 03-27-2009, 12:53 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Yeah agreed betting at least first 2 streets seems good, that's the line I took here. I ended up checking the river though. The only problem is he never raises with a king or even 2 pair, it's just call call call. At 20NL I always seem to townc myself in these spots so wondered if 2 streets value was maybe better against this type of villain.

 
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:02 PM #6 (permalink)  
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bet, hope 86 or flush draw give you sum value
bet/fold the turn and check river back
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Carroters
Old 03-28-2009, 02:46 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin2311
dont play marginal hands against donks there most often times going to catch and beat you leaving you mad and broke. so play monsters against them and take all the idiots chips leaving him unhappy and broke
Ahh this is what I've been doing wrong. I should be folding QQ pre flop against donks because they will own me with 84o cos poker is rigged. I should wait for aces and then fold unless I flop quads vs donks or stations. I sure don't want to end up mad and broke again because they take my entire bankroll with their 84o - it happens too often and I hurt the people close to me when it does.

 
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