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martindcx1e
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04-20-2006, 06:30 PM
Post subject: Thoughts on "Seeing where you're at"
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Lately I have realized that there are many poker players out there who are betting and raising without really thinking about why they are doing so. If I were to ask them why they just bet or raised one very popular answer I'd be sure to hear alot would be, "to see where I'm at." Well I believe that allowing this to be one's sole reason for betting/raising is a leak that many players suffer from. The three main reasons to bet are (and please if anyone has another reason let me know):
1. Bluff
2. Value
3. Protect
Bluffing is obviously betting/raising when you do not have a good hand and are hoping that your opponent(s) folds. The most common type of bluff is probably the continuation bet (c-bet).
Value betting/raising is done when you are happy to get called because you have a good reason to believe that you are ahead and will only be getting called by weaker hands.
Protecting your hand against draws is simply betting enough to make it a mistake for your opponent(s) to call with a draw.
Betting/raising simply to "see where you're at" can be costly in the long run because many times it will only serve to build the pot with a hand you are unsure of and will only get your bets called by hands that beat you. I think many players get into a habit of betting/raising in certain situations and just think it's incorrect not to just because "that's what you are supposed to do," but if they stopped and thought about why they're doing what they're doing they could make more +EV decisions.
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gabe
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good post man
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
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I like when opponents bet to "show me where they're at".
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
I like when opponents bet to "show me where they're at".
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Agreed. Maybe I shouldn't have posted this. I'm such an idiot.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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jackvance
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No great post man. Betting "to see where you are at" is basically "betting to get called only by better hands". I can't think of any reasons to bet besides the ones you mentionned, from the top of my head. Except maybe the very rare "to see if he's for real"-reraise on a possible aggro bluffer who is trying to dominate the table.
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dev
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It works better live, you get more information from the way they react to the bet.
Online, though, I'm finding it to be a big leak.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
It works better live, you get more information from the way they react to the bet.
Online, though, I'm finding it to be a big leak.
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I think it would be -EV in live games for the same reasons.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
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Information is power.
If I have played with a player for any length of time, I can tell with pretty good accuracy when they are calling on the draw, because they think they might be beat but want to call me anyway, or when they're slowplaying. You can't do that online.
Online now, I'm losing a bit of cash to people when villians act weak with a decent hand. It's good that I've been looking into a little bit more passive style of play, because otherwise it might just be very, very frustrating.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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andy-akb
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Your post kind of lumped betting and raising together, what sklansky says about raising should apply. He says there are 7 reasons to raise:
1. Value
2. To drive out opponents when you may have the best hand
3. To bluff/semi bluff
4. To get a free card
5. To gain information
6. To drive out worse hands when your own hand may be second best
7. To drive out better hands when a come hand bets
To shorten those Id say there are the following reasons:
1. Value
2. To drive out opponents
3. Bluff/Semi-Bluff
4. To get a free card
5. To get information
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gabe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
It works better live, you get more information from the way they react to the bet.
Online, though, I'm finding it to be a big leak.
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I think it would be -EV in live games for the same reasons. |
i think there are probably some differences between live and online, but thats for another thread
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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ToP rules
sklansky wasnt talking outta his ass for once when he wrote that book
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strawman
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
It works better live, you get more information from the way they react to the bet.
Online, though, I'm finding it to be a big leak.
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I think it would be -EV in live games for the same reasons. |
You know when you think you are bluffing, however can you really ever know if you are protecting your hand or value betting or if you are even bluffing without complete information. Assume you bet out with King rag and your opponent folds. Is that a bluff? What if your opponent turns over Q rag. Was your bet now protecting your hand?
Betting to see where you are at is betting for information which isn't different from any other type of bet really, much like say a probe bet or betting to get a free card or betting to set up your opponent on the next street. I do think this works better in live games.
I had a recent situation in which I had 7 3 in the BB. I get to see a free flop which comes up 8 7 4. I bet out half the pot. I don't have much, only a very small piece which might just be good enough. This isn't a bluff, so is it a value bet or protection at this point? UTG raises me and it folds back around. My bet to "see where I was at" was answered forcefully. So I look at him and ask, "How far behind am I here? I can't be that far behind on this flop so let's see the turn." I call. The turn pairs the 4 and I say, "It looks like I caught up," and bet the pot. He folded the better hand.
My bet to see where I was at allowed me to bluff the pot away from him on a later street. Additionally this betting pattern allowed me to pick up a number of other pots later in the session as well. Again, I think these probe bets work better when you have a captive audience that has been watching your for the whole evening and you've been able to watch them. It was as much the betting pattern as the verbal jousting that set me up to take the pot down on the turn.
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martindcx1e
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by strawman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
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Originally Posted by dev
It works better live, you get more information from the way they react to the bet.
Online, though, I'm finding it to be a big leak.
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I think it would be -EV in live games for the same reasons. |
You know when you think you are bluffing, however can you really ever know if you are protecting your hand or value betting or if you are even bluffing without complete information. Assume you bet out with King rag and your opponent folds. Is that a bluff? What if your opponent turns over Q rag. Was your bet now protecting your hand?
Betting to see where you are at is betting for information which isn't different from any other type of bet really, much like say a probe bet or betting to get a free card or betting to set up your opponent on the next street. I do think this works better in live games.
I had a recent situation in which I had 7 3 in the BB. I get to see a free flop which comes up 8 7 4. I bet out half the pot. I don't have much, only a very small piece which might just be good enough. This isn't a bluff, so is it a value bet or protection at this point? UTG raises me and it folds back around. My bet to "see where I was at" was answered forcefully. So I look at him and ask, "How far behind am I here? I can't be that far behind on this flop so let's see the turn." I call. The turn pairs the 4 and I say, "It looks like I caught up," and bet the pot. He folded the better hand.
My bet to see where I was at allowed me to bluff the pot away from him on a later street. Additionally this betting pattern allowed me to pick up a number of other pots later in the session as well. Again, I think these probe bets work better when you have a captive audience that has been watching your for the whole evening and you've been able to watch them. It was as much the betting pattern as the verbal jousting that set me up to take the pot down on the turn. |
Your Kx vs. Qx hand would be a bluff. You have nothing and want your opponent to fold. If you knew that your opponent had that exact hand then it would be to protect your hand because you know you are ahead and by how much. In your 73 hand, I'm assuming it was heads up correct? If so then your bet was good because there was a good chance that your opponent did not hit but he could be drawing. He then let you know that you were probably beat. Your turn bet was a bluff and you gained the information at the same time that your opponent could be pushed off a hand. That information was a side effect of your turn bluff.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Thee One
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Straight
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I bet/raise to get action. People think I'll put money in the pot on any two...and I will at times. The key is for them to guess when I have a hand and when I don't. Also I don't like making hard decisions, so I frequently bet to see if anyone is willing to fight for the pot and raise to see if I'm being bluffed. It could be a leak, BUT if your looser table image allows you to get paid off more then I think it more than balances out when you start playing for stacks with your set vs TPTK because Mr. Table-Cop is tired of folding to your raises.
Really, it IS about knowing where you are in a hand. True, people slow play monsters all the time, but you're not value betting your 2nd pair...you're trying to take the pot down or get out. If you get played back at, at least at the stakes I'm playing at, you go for the cheap showdown or lay it down. If you are investing any more after that without a REALLY SOLID read, you're leaking chips.
I think I'm rambling now.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
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u guys play bigger stakes and bigger games than me, but I find in NL25 (6 max especially) that betting to find "where I'm at" does a few good things -
1 - I pick up plenty of those orphan pots
2 - I give off the image that i'm not a rock. In my games I tend to get Lots of action when i've got a big hand because I bet at a lot of pots and play a lot of cards - When I say that I don't mean I come out betting 1/2 a pot to find out - in a 25NL game I've found that a 75c or $1 bet is usually effective at finding where your at -
Now, in the long term maybe it is a losing play - Do we all play the long term though? I have won some big pots (for $25NL) by giving action. I'll bleed away $2-3 in info bets when i can double through someone when I hit a real hand and he thinks i'm "betting for info" still....
basically what I mean is I don't think Poker is as Black & White as it's made out to be sometimes...We play against people- not cards -
just random - Im sure the play at $100NL is probably much different and it isn't as easy to trick those players....
was the info post about NL or Limit? Or does taht matter?
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this space intentionally left blank
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thee One
I bet/raise to get action. People think I'll put money in the pot on any two...and I will at times. The key is for them to guess when I have a hand and when I don't. Also I don't like making hard decisions, so I frequently bet to see if anyone is willing to fight for the pot and raise to see if I'm being bluffed.
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If you are betting with any 2 that means you are bluffing and that is a good reason to bet/raise.
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Originally Posted by Thee One
It could be a leak, BUT if your looser table image allows you to get paid off more then I think it more than balances out when you start playing for stacks with your set vs TPTK because Mr. Table-Cop is tired of folding to your raises.
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You can have a loose table image while never betting solely to find out where you're at.
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Originally Posted by Thee One
Really, it IS about knowing where you are in a hand. True, people slow play monsters all the time, but you're not value betting your 2nd pair...you're trying to take the pot down or get out.
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If you are betting/raising 2nd pair it's probably because you are protecting your hand or are trying to bluff someone off a better hand. You're only betting/raising for value when you know you are up against a calling station.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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martindcx1e
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
u guys play bigger stakes and bigger games than me, but I find in NL25 (6 max especially) that betting to find "where I'm at" does a few good things -
1 - I pick up plenty of those orphan pots
2 - I give off the image that i'm not a rock. In my games I tend to get Lots of action when i've got a big hand because I bet at a lot of pots and play a lot of cards - When I say that I don't mean I come out betting 1/2 a pot to find out - in a 25NL game I've found that a 75c or $1 bet is usually effective at finding where your at -
Now, in the long term maybe it is a losing play - Do we all play the long term though? I have won some big pots (for $25NL) by giving action. I'll bleed away $2-3 in info bets when i can double through someone when I hit a real hand and he thinks i'm "betting for info" still....
just random - Im sure the play at $100NL is probably much different and it isn't as easy to trick those players....
was the info post about NL or Limit? Or does taht matter?
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I'm talking about NL because we are in a NL forum. If you are picking up lots of pots you are most likely bluffing lots which is a good reason to bet/raise. Finding out where you're at is an added benefit. I believe you can have a loose table image while never betting/raising solely to find out where you're at.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Ebene
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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I agree w/ Thee One. There are a lot of good betting/raising situations that could fall under the term "information bets." Even a cbet could be termed an information bet - after all, is it a value bet or a bluff or are you protecting your hand?
If your hand is good enough to call one more decent sized bet on the next street, but not 2 more bets or one big bet, then I am a big fan of just betting/raising right now with the intention of mucking to any more aggro. When I do this, I don't know if I'm bluffing or protecting or value betting or betting for information, but the easiest way to describe it is betting to see where I'm at. I think this is a lot better than calling bets on the next 2 streets in the dark or mucking what might be the best hand.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ebene
Even a cbet could be termed an information bet - after all, is it a value bet or a bluff or are you protecting your hand?
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A c-bet is a bluff. You have no hand and want your opponent(s) to fold.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ebene
If your hand is good enough to call one more decent sized bet on the next street, but not 2 more bets or one big bet, then I am a big fan of just betting/raising right now with the intention of mucking to any more aggro.
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I don't really understand this. You bet or raise because you would call a decent bet on the next street? I don't understand this thinking.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Thee One
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Straight
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thee One
I bet/raise to get action. People think I'll put money in the pot on any two...and I will at times. The key is for them to guess when I have a hand and when I don't. Also I don't like making hard decisions, so I frequently bet to see if anyone is willing to fight for the pot and raise to see if I'm being bluffed.
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If you are betting with any 2 that means you are bluffing and that is a good reason to bet/raise.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thee One
It could be a leak, BUT if your looser table image allows you to get paid off more then I think it more than balances out when you start playing for stacks with your set vs TPTK because Mr. Table-Cop is tired of folding to your raises.
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You can have a loose table image while never betting solely to find out where you're at.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thee One
Really, it IS about knowing where you are in a hand. True, people slow play monsters all the time, but you're not value betting your 2nd pair...you're trying to take the pot down or get out.
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If you are betting/raising 2nd pair it's probably because you are protecting your hand or are trying to bluff someone off a better hand. You're only betting/raising for value when you know you are up against a calling station. |
Then I think it's semantics. Betting to see where you are entails all of those things. The intended end result is to take down the pot, whether on the spot or after extracting maximum value. The term 'betting to see where you are' is what really seems like it bothers you, not the group of actions that actually comprise the generic term.
That said, I agree that a person who doesn't know why he is betting has a leak. But simply 'betting to see where you are' can have either a lot of wisdom or a lot of ignorance. Depends on what, if any, intent is behind the generic term.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thee One
Then I think it's semantics. Betting to see where you are entails all of those things. The intended end result is to take down the pot, whether on the spot or after extracting maximum value. The term 'betting to see where you are' is what really seems like it bothers you, not the group of actions that actually comprise the generic term.
That said, I agree that a person who doesn't know why he is betting has a leak. But simply 'betting to see where you are' can have either a lot of wisdom or a lot of ignorance. Depends on what, if any, intent is behind the generic term.
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Yes that term is what bothers me because I think it leads to many -EV post flop decisions and will lose you $ in the long run.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Ebene
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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A cbet isn't a bluff. Presumably you had the best hand going in, and your opponent will miss the flop over half the time, so if it HAS to be one thing then its a value bet. But its not that simple, its part value, part protection, part bluff, and part seeing where you're at.
If your hand is good enough to call one (but only one) more bet anyway, yet there is a possibility that if you check your opponent will bet twice and/or bet more than you are willing to call, then make one more bet instead. This protects your hand from being outdrawn, it gives you another way to win by having some better hands lay down, and it protects you from being bluffed off the best hand. I call that an information bet - call it what you will.
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
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this is a good post but i think it depends a lot on style and situation. A good lag player will always bet to see where he's at. He may bet and continue floating in the hand to take the pot when he senses weakness. It also depends on the opponents.
I personally avoid too many feeler bets but sometimes they are necessary. If the pot is pretty big with 4 people in the hand and you hold 99 and the flop comes 10 8 3, you have to fire a feeler bet out there. Yes you are only called by the better hand 90 percent of the time, but if the pot is big you still must bet in this situation. It is not really a value bet because you are always called with the better hand, and it is not really a bluff because you have a hand. It is a feeler bet, and there are many other situations where you must use them. Yes, if feeler bets are used incorrectly, they may be a leak, but knowing when to use them is important and very profitable.
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im good at poker
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
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Good post. Here's a situation I always wonder about with regards to betting for information.
Say 200bb stacks.
I raise 5xbb UTG with AA and get one caller in LP.
flop comes Q 6 2 rainbow.
I bet 2/3 the pot (7xbb) and villan raises to 21xbb.
What do I do?
options are
reraise - which is purely and information bet
or call - which gains me no information and I have to act first on the turn.
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gabe
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Moderator
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most of the information you have during a hand is related to how you perceive your opponent to play. like in the AA hand, if you know he slowplays set on uncoordinated boards (like most people do), then you have alot more information then raising him back could provide.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ebene
A cbet isn't a bluff. Presumably you had the best hand going in, and your opponent will miss the flop over half the time, so if it HAS to be one thing then its a value bet. But its not that simple, its part value, part protection, part bluff, and part seeing where you're at.
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If I raise 32o from the button and bet the flop when villain checks to me I am c-betting. I have the worst possible hand at the moment. If I have a missed AQ and am checked to, my c-bet is a bluff. It is not for value because I want to be called when I am value betting. I have nothing to protect either.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ebene
If your hand is good enough to call one (but only one) more bet anyway, yet there is a possibility that if you check your opponent will bet twice and/or bet more than you are willing to call, then make one more bet instead.
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I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. Maybe I am an idiot but that is very confusing to me.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
I personally avoid too many feeler bets but sometimes they are necessary. If the pot is pretty big with 4 people in the hand and you hold 99 and the flop comes 10 8 3, you have to fire a feeler bet out there. Yes you are only called by the better hand 90 percent of the time, but if the pot is big you still must bet in this situation. It is not really a value bet because you are always called with the better hand, and it is not really a bluff because you have a hand. It is a feeler bet, and there are many other situations where you must use them. Yes, if feeler bets are used incorrectly, they may be a leak, but knowing when to use them is important and very profitable.
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If I were to bet in that situation it would be because I think my hand could very well be best at the moment and I don't want anyone drawing cheaply. If I am OOP against many opponents I am fine surrendering a hand like that.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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piratepeaty
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 121
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Good post. Here's a situation I always wonder about with regards to betting for information.
Say 200bb stacks.
I raise 5xbb UTG with AA and get one caller in LP.
flop comes Q 6 2 rainbow.
I bet 2/3 the pot (7xbb) and villan raises to 21xbb.
What do I do?
options are
reraise - which is purely and information bet
or call - which gains me no information and I have to act first on the turn.
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Are you joking???
You got raise 21bb or a tenth of your stack. You had better know now where you are in the hand. What are you going to do? risk half your stack on a raise and essentually commit the rest of it on a raise??? FOR INFORMATION? That isn't even RELIABLE?????
Here are your options. Fold because you think your opponent hit a set. Reraise for VALUE against a strong Q. Call and plan to follow a WA/WB line. Or call to trap your opponent on a later street.
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piratepeaty
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 121
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
I personally avoid too many feeler bets but sometimes they are necessary. If the pot is pretty big with 4 people in the hand and you hold 99 and the flop comes 10 8 3, you have to fire a feeler bet out there. Yes you are only called by the better hand 90 percent of the time, but if the pot is big you still must bet in this situation. It is not really a value bet because you are always called with the better hand, and it is not really a bluff because you have a hand. It is a feeler bet, and there are many other situations where you must use them. Yes, if feeler bets are used incorrectly, they may be a leak, but knowing when to use them is important and very profitable.
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If I were to bet in that situation it would be because I think my hand could very well be best at the moment and I don't want anyone drawing cheaply. If I am OOP against many opponents I am fine surrendering a hand like that. |
I agree. If I bet here, I'm also betting to protect against a bluff. Yes, that is right. Sometimes it is best to bet, to protect your hand from air, not just draws (ie. a blocking bet). A standard block would be to lead with trips or worse on a 3-flush river card OOP. This is a protection bet/bluff not a "feeler bet".
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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LOL of course it is a feeler bet pirate. man if you are called you know you are probably beat. If you are raised you know now that you are beat. That is the definition of "feeler bet". cmon man.
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im good at poker
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
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A cbet is not necessarily a bluff. It's a bet that continues to rep the hand you repped PF, bluff or not.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Probably the least important point here but I think a cbet is part hand protection and part semi-bluff.
If you had the best hand going to the flop (headsup) you probably have the best hand now but it is very vulnerable. If your opponent has hit a 7 with their 67s then you hope they fold, but if they dont you still have 6 outs to help you.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by samsonite2100
A cbet is not necessarily a bluff. It's a bet that continues to rep the hand you repped PF, bluff or not.
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Representing a hand is what bluffing is. If you hit your hand on the flop then it would no longer be a c-bet.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
Irisheyes wrote:
Good post. Here's a situation I always wonder about with regards to betting for information.
Say 200bb stacks.
I raise 5xbb UTG with AA and get one caller in LP.
flop comes Q 6 2 rainbow.
I bet 2/3 the pot (7xbb) and villan raises to 21xbb.
What do I do?
options are
reraise - which is purely and information bet
or call - which gains me no information and I have to act first on the turn.
Are you joking???
You got raise 21bb or a tenth of your stack. You had better know now where you are in the hand. What are you going to do? risk half your stack on a raise and essentually commit the rest of it on a raise??? FOR INFORMATION? That isn't even RELIABLE?????
Here are your options. Fold because you think your opponent hit a set. Reraise for VALUE against a strong Q. Call and plan to follow a WA/WB line. Or call to trap your opponent on a later street.
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Thats a hell of a lot of information you need to get without betting.
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piratepeaty
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 121
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
LOL of course it is a feeler bet pirate. man if you are called you know you are probably beat. If you are raised you know now that you are beat. That is the definition of "feeler bet". cmon man.
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I don't agree. You aren't nessesarily beat. How many times have you been called by junk? how many times are you raised with junk? in your example, villian could easily have J9 for an open ended draw. He may raise you, or he may just call. Does it mean you are beat?
Obviously not. It does help narrow down his range, but I still stand by my original post that the bet is PRIMARILY for protection.
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piratepeaty
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 121
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
Irisheyes wrote:
Good post. Here's a situation I always wonder about with regards to betting for information.
Say 200bb stacks.
I raise 5xbb UTG with AA and get one caller in LP.
flop comes Q 6 2 rainbow.
I bet 2/3 the pot (7xbb) and villan raises to 21xbb.
What do I do?
options are
reraise - which is purely and information bet
or call - which gains me no information and I have to act first on the turn.
Are you joking???
You got raise 21bb or a tenth of your stack. You had better know now where you are in the hand. What are you going to do? risk half your stack on a raise and essentually commit the rest of it on a raise??? FOR INFORMATION? That isn't even RELIABLE?????
Here are your options. Fold because you think your opponent hit a set. Reraise for VALUE against a strong Q. Call and plan to follow a WA/WB line. Or call to trap your opponent on a later street.
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Thats a hell of a lot of information you need to get without betting. |
You already have alot of information. If you have been at the table a while, you should know his tendoncies. Is he very aggressive with TP? is he a set farmer? Is he tricky? Would he reraise with air on a PFR to induce a fold.
Reraising here is definately NOT strictly for information. If I reraise here it is because I think I have the best hand most of the time and it is for value only.
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
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Quote:
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Representing a hand is what bluffing is. If you hit your hand on the flop then it would no longer be a c-bet.
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Incorrect. If you raised PF, hit TPTK on the flop and bet at it, that is also a cbet. A cbet is any bet that continues action from the previous round of betting. Semantics, yes, but that is the actual definition.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by samsonite2100
Quote:
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Representing a hand is what bluffing is. If you hit your hand on the flop then it would no longer be a c-bet.
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Incorrect. If you raised PF, hit TPTK on the flop and bet at it, that is also a cbet. A cbet is any bet that continues action from the previous round of betting. Semantics, yes, but that is the actual definition. |
Guess so. I think the term is generally reserved for when you miss your hand though. At least that's what it seems like around here.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
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Yeah, that's how it's usually used. I'm just being nitpicky for no good reason.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by samsonite2100
Yeah, that's how it's usually used. I'm just being nitpicky for no good reason.
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lol it's hard to resist sometimes. like i want to scream at everyone who has said "raise" when they mean "bet" in these last few threads of mine.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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From a lagg perspective...
If they see you show down 57o(god) for a straight, and 36s for a flush, and QQ for queens full... they can find a reason to fold no matter what the texture of the flop.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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strawman
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 207
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Your Kx vs. Qx hand would be a bluff. You have nothing and want your opponent to fold. If you knew that your opponent had that exact hand then it would be to protect your hand because you know you are ahead and by how much. In your 73 hand, I'm assuming it was heads up correct?
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The scenario I listed inidcated I wasn't heads up.
I'm comfortable with probe and continuation bets. If I want to see where I'm at I'll throw out a probe bet. If I put in a raise pre flop I'm likely to throw out a continuation bet even if I don't hit simply because I was the pre flop raiser and not because I'm trying to bluff at it. Sure it might be a -EV play for the hand but poker is long term. If I raise pre flop and only bet the flop when I hit and check/fold when I miss does that make pre flop raising a leak since now my opponents have an excellent tell on my part.
You seem determined to fit all the scenarios that have been discussed here into three neat and tidy categories and I think that is a leak.
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by piratepeaty
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
LOL of course it is a feeler bet pirate. man if you are called you know you are probably beat. If you are raised you know now that you are beat. That is the definition of "feeler bet". cmon man.
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I don't agree. You aren't nessesarily beat. How many times have you been called by junk? how many times are you raised with junk? in your example, villian could easily have J9 for an open ended draw. He may raise you, or he may just call. Does it mean you are beat?
Obviously not. It does help narrow down his range, but I still stand by my original post that the bet is PRIMARILY for protection. |
pirate ur an idiot. of course you can be raised by junk on any hand. yes even feeler bets can get raised by junk. surprise surprise..this doesn't mean its not in fact still a feeler bet. LOL you are funny man. i cracked up when i read this. so can u define a situation where you feeler bet cannot get raised with junk?? LOL
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im good at poker
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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u can always get raised by junk but you are still attempting to see where you are at when u make the bet. and pirate are you trying to say there is no such thing as a feeler bet?//?
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im good at poker
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piratepeaty
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 121
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
Quote:
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Originally Posted by piratepeaty
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
LOL of course it is a feeler bet pirate. man if you are called you know you are probably beat. If you are raised you know now that you are beat. That is the definition of "feeler bet". cmon man.
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I don't agree. You aren't nessesarily beat. How many times have you been called by junk? how many times are you raised with junk? in your example, villian could easily have J9 for an open ended draw. He may raise you, or he may just call. Does it mean you are beat?
Obviously not. It does help narrow down his range, but I still stand by my original post that the bet is PRIMARILY for protection. |
pirate ur an idiot. of course you can be raised by junk on any hand. yes even feeler bets can get raised by junk. surprise surprise..this doesn't mean its not in fact still a feeler bet. LOL you are funny man. i cracked up when i read this. so can u define a situation where you feeler bet cannot get raised with junk?? LOL |
You should try to understand a person's point before insulting them. You may even learn something. The fact that you can get raised by junk means the information you are getting from your bet isn't reliable. It's also extremely expensive with relation to the pot size.
My point is, the information you get from a 'feeler' bet is not reliable unless your opponent is extremely predictable. Even then, sometimes your opponent may suprise you.
And if you're calling me an idiot, you might as well call David Sklansky an idiot as well. Theory of Poker says "consider any information gained [by raising] as an extra benefit of a raise you are making for other reasons." I whole-heartedly agree.
I know that 'feeler bets' exist. I know that people bet to "see where they are". Personally, I think it is a huge waste of money. I'm happy to say that raising or betting strictly for information is NOT in my poker arsenal.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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{musical interlude}
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strawman
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 207
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by piratepeaty
My point is, the information you get from a 'feeler' bet is not reliable unless your opponent is extremely predictable. Even then, sometimes your opponent may suprise you.
And if you're calling me an idiot, you might as well call David Sklansky an idiot as well. Theory of Poker says "consider any information gained [by raising] as an extra benefit of a raise you are making for other reasons." I whole-heartedly agree.
I know that 'feeler bets' exist. I know that people bet to "see where they are". Personally, I think it is a huge waste of money. I'm happy to say that raising or betting strictly for information is NOT in my poker arsenal.
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I fail to see the consistency in the argument here. You start off with a feeler bet than talk about TOP and raising, than return to a feeler bet.
HOH has a section pertaining to probe bets and seeing where he stands. It's obviously in Harrington's arsenal and I'm in no position to argue with him.
I can go along with not raising to see where you are at, but I don't think a probe bet is neccessarily a waste of money. To each their own.
Although now that I rethink the situation my likehood of a probe bet when more than two others see the flop is almost not existant. If I bet in that situation my intentions lean more towards limiting the field.
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strawman
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 207
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
{musical interlude}
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I'm starting to lose the thread of this myself and seem to be getting lost in the semantics as well. My read on this thread is another 20 post til Godwin's Law takes effect. 
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IrishGilly
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1
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In a way, isn't "betting to see where you're at" like a c-bet? You're giving yourself a chance to take the pot down right then and there, and if you get called, it's "fold to any action if I don't improve." Granted if you're putting feeler bets out all the time an aware player will see it, but if used in the right situation against the right player it's just a bluff with the worst case scenario of you gathering information.
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
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Quote:
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I'm starting to lose the thread of this myself and seem to be getting lost in the semantics as well. My read on this thread is another 20 post til Godwin's Law takes effect.
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Didn't the Nazis invent feeler bets?
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