www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

Thoughts on Check-Bombing Turns with Overpairs

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

martindcx1e

09-18-2006, 09:04 PM Post subject: Thoughts on Check-Bombing Turns with Overpairs

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

I've been thinking some about the popular c/r turn line with overpairs lately. I think it's most common use is after being raised on the flop. My question about this line is...do you usually just use it when there's an apparent draw on the flop? If so then if villain is on a draw wouldn't they normally take their free card? The other time it's used is when villain just calls the flop bet. Is this used on dry flops and draw flops or what? I understand that some like to do this vs. floaters. My question about this line is...don't we get burned badly when villain flops a monster and is trying to take the classic call flop/raise turn line? Also, if they are really trying to float you then that means they are likely pretty far behind your overpair so...why raise them out of the pot?

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

mcatdog

09-18-2006, 10:46 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 3,654

It doesn't really matter. There's a reason this line is called "stack-a-donk" -- it doesn't work so well against good players. Most fish will turbo-call a check-raise with any hand that's good enough to value bet the turn.

Fnord

09-18-2006, 10:57 PM

#3 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

It also depends on how deep the money is. In a raised pre-flop pot, a called flop c-bet followed by a c/r is going to be a raise to about pot.

Also, there is value gained here when we induce weak hands to bet, blow strong draws off their pot equity and make it more difficult to float against us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

martindcx1e

09-19-2006, 01:16 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Also, there is value gained here when we induce weak hands to bet, blow strong draws off their pot equity and make it more difficult to float against us.

I understand that checking the turn can induce action from weaker hands, but are we raising if there are no apparent draws? Wouldn't they just fold their weak holding on the turn most times? Also, how many players bet the turn on a draw if they can take a free card? - I'm not saying they don't...I'm actually wondering. I do like the fact that opponents will become less likely to float us.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

martindcx1e

09-19-2006, 01:21 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Are they really value betting though? It seems to me that floaters usually don't have a "value betting" hand.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

bode

09-19-2006, 02:17 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: slow motion

Posts: 4,270

bode is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Also, there is value gained here when we induce weak hands to bet, blow strong draws off their pot equity and make it more difficult to float against us.

I understand that checking the turn can induce action from weaker hands, but are we raising if there are no apparent draws? Wouldn't they just fold their weak holding on the turn most times?

whether you c/bomb the turn or c/c the turn and lead the river, you are still getting the same amount of $$$ from villains folding a weak hand. in terms of EV, when villain has the 2nd best hand, i think you would get more value out of reraising the turn 3-4x their bet, than leading out on the river (assuming you wouldnt check behind)

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

martindcx1e

09-19-2006, 02:26 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bode-ist

Hmmm that's true. Good point. So is the usual amount of the c/r All-In or like 3x or what? If not All-In then how do we usually react to a push?

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Fnord

09-19-2006, 02:36 AM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

My point is that the turn bomb for even something like 3x would often pot-commit us anyway. By shoving we're not allowing draws to save any value when they just call and miss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

bode

09-19-2006, 02:43 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: slow motion

Posts: 4,270

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

My point is that the turn bomb for even something like 3x would often pot-commit us anyway. By shoving we're not allowing draws to save any value when they just call and miss.

i agree with this. im not saying there isnt a time and a place for a turn push, but if stacks are deep enough, a 3-4x reraise will do the trick. as always, it depends on the situation.

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

Turska

09-19-2006, 05:55 AM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 254

I usually have this line in 25 NL assuming villain has
about full stack. I use this line randomly at 75% of time.

Preflop raise 4-6 x BB:

Flop: overpair or TPTK

standard c bet i use 1/2-2/3 pot usually.

If calls flop I check the turn: If raise I reraise like at turn.

Villain usually bets 12-16xBB (3-4) dollars I raise to 40xBB
10 dollars. This is pressure point.

Most of the time I get the pot right here. Especially against
lags.

If called I check/fold river. If re-raised I fold. If i got
strong reads I might play river differently. Against
unknown not.

T.

TerryToma

09-19-2006, 06:01 AM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 823

i dont use this line very much.

if c-bet is raised on flop im worried my tp/overpair is beat.. im basically looking to show down cheap after something like this.. to tell u the truth raising a cbet is pretty rare with a draw, even though it is a well known/common move most people are nits/weak and dont do it very often.. especially if their stats show it.. i guess with a read a check bomb is good..

Oldest TerryBlog (the good ole days): http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-40661.htm

Older TerryBlog (failed attempt #1):
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...887&highlight=

Fnord

09-19-2006, 06:29 AM

#12 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

BOMBS AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($103.15)
UTG ($63.55)
MP ($70.30)
Button ($311.15)
SB ($28.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, A

.
1 fold, MP raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero raises to $9, MP calls $6.

Flop: ($18.50) 7

, T

, 7

(2 players)
Hero bets $12, MP calls $12.

Turn: ($42.50) 4

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $15, Hero raises to $50, MP calls $34.30 (All-In).

River: ($141.80) J

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $141.80

Results in white below:
Hero has Ac Ad (two pair, aces and sevens).
MP has 8h 8d (two pair, eights and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins $141.80.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($465.25)
BB ($92.50)
UTG ($29.80)
MP ($70.30)
Hero ($124.25)
Button ($46.05)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

, K

.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, Button calls $4, 2 folds.

Flop: ($9.50) K

, 9

, 3

(2 players)
Hero bets $6, Button calls $6.

Turn: ($21.50) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $10, Hero raises to $36, Button folds.

Final Pot: $67.50

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $67.50.

johnnyjizzle said, "u have to call"
johnnyjizzle said, "wtf"
Fnord said, "He had NOTHING"

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($166.10)
Hero ($128.15)
BB ($100)
UTG ($122.55)
MP ($105.50)
CO ($87.45)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K

, K

.
UTG raises to $4, MP calls $4, 1 fold, Button calls $4, Hero raises to $15, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP calls $11, Button folds.

Flop: ($39) Q

, Q

, 3

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $15, Hero calls $15.

Turn: ($69) T

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $27, Hero raises to $98.15, MP folds.

Final Pot: $194.15

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $194.15.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($24)
BB ($77.90)
UTG ($79.40)
MP ($139.70)
Hero ($113.80)
Button ($230.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q

, Q

.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, Button calls $4, 1 fold, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($12.50) 4

, 3

, 4

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $9, Button calls $9, BB folds.

Turn: ($30.50) 6

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $12, Hero raises to $30, Button calls $18.

River: ($90.50) K

(2 players)
Hero bets $70.8 (All-In), Button folds.

Final Pot: $161.30

Results in white below:
Hero has Qc Qd (two pair, queens and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins $161.30.

Opponent is an FTR lurker and regular in this game.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($240.40)
SB ($248.20)
BB ($211.15)
Fnord ($215.55)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with A

, J

.
Fnord raises to $8, Button calls $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) 7

, 7

, 8

(3 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets $16, Button calls $16, BB folds.

Turn: ($57) 9

(2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets $16, Fnord raises to $45, Button calls $29.

River: ($147) 9

(2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets $21, Fnord calls $21.

Final Pot: $189

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

martindcx1e

09-19-2006, 06:54 AM

#13 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

so fnord, you seem to like this line after a flop call and also on paired flops huh? i'm guessing you don't run into monsters looking to call flop/raise turn often enough to worry about it then or do these villains have a tendency to float?

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Fnord

09-19-2006, 06:56 AM

#14 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Not much scares me off when I think I'm good.

re: floating. It's short-handed and just about everyone knows a c-bet means "I still have 2 cards."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

TalentedTom

09-19-2006, 07:51 AM

#15 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Toronto

Posts: 289

The idea behind check raise the turn is that by checking opponents will generally put you on missed overcards and will bet their hand for value whatever it may be, and an all in check raise overbet looks like a bluff in the eyes of many players so it's a "trap" type play. It's very effective especially against aggresive or loose players.

Tom.S

Fnord

09-19-2006, 07:54 AM

#16 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

I think it's more a matter of bad to medicore players won't fold a hand once they put in a couple big bets. I see lots of absurd calls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Turska

09-19-2006, 09:05 AM

#17 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 254

Well Fnord your hand histories look very familiar to
mine

Only at smaller stakes

IOS

09-19-2006, 09:26 AM

#18 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: 100NL 6max

Posts: 84

Fnord, if you are going to post that last hand history at least show the results.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

IOS ($240.40)
SB ($248.20)
BB ($211.15)
UTG ($215.55)

Preflop: IOS is Button with 7

, A

.
UTG raises to $8, IOS calls $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) 7

, 7

, 8

(3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $16, IOS calls $16, BB folds.

Turn: ($57) 9

(2 players)
UTG checks, IOS bets $16, UTG raises to $45, IOS calls $29.

River: ($147) 9

(2 players)
UTG checks, IOS bets $21, UTG calls $21.

Final Pot: $189

Results in white below:
UTG has Ah Js (two pair, nines and sevens).
IOS has 7c Ac (full house, sevens full of nines).
Outcome: IOS wins $189.

djzcko

09-19-2006, 02:15 PM

#19 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 285

Nice thread guys...this is something I need to work on. I am always more paranoid of somebody drawing out on me and therefore rarely, if ever, employ this line. I will usually bet out each street to make them pay, esp with flush or str8 draw flops. Almost always when I check the turn, I have two overs or an underpair (i.e. JJ with an overcard on the board). It really does scream weakness when you cbet the flop and check the turn...and then when you pop them it sure looks like a bluff. Nice...

bode

09-19-2006, 04:11 PM

#20 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: slow motion

Posts: 4,270

Quote:

Originally Posted by djzcko

you need to know when the time is right to fire the second barrell. sometimes the scare card for you is also a scare card for villains

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

martindcx1e

09-19-2006, 04:18 PM

#21 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

I guess I've been giving opponents too much credit thinking they'll auto-fold their crap holdings after our c/r. I forget how easily they become "committed."

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

TerryToma

09-19-2006, 04:52 PM

#22 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 823

welp tried it today with TPTK, guy had a set of course.

i dont think it works well in FR.

Oldest TerryBlog (the good ole days): http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-40661.htm

Older TerryBlog (failed attempt #1):
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...887&highlight=

martindcx1e

09-19-2006, 05:43 PM

#23 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerryToma

welp tried it today with TPTK, guy had a set of course.

i dont think it works well in FR.

lol sorry terry. i've used it several times at 25nl with overpairs...never with tptk. care to post the hh?

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

TerryToma

09-19-2006, 10:17 PM

#24 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 823

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerryToma

welp tried it today with TPTK, guy had a set of course.

i dont think it works well in FR.

lol sorry terry. i've used it several times at 25nl with overpairs...never with tptk. care to post the hh?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $105.95
UTG+1: $20.70
MP1: $84.90
MP2: $100.80
MP3: $167.95
CO: $101.45
Button: $127.65
TerryToma: $111.45
BB: $153.50

Pre-flop: (9 players) TerryToma is SB with A

5 folds, CO raises to $4, Button calls, TerryToma raises to $10, BB folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: 3

($31, 3 players)
TerryToma bets $25, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: A

($81, 2 players)
TerryToma checks, Button bets $20, TerryToma raises all-in $76.45, Button calls.

River: 7

($233.9, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $233.9)

Results:
Final pot: $233.9
TerryToma showed Ad Kc

I guess its pretty obvious set line, the weak bet on turn suckered me in. Plus i was looking for opportunities to check bomb after reading this thread.

Oldest TerryBlog (the good ole days): http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-40661.htm

Older TerryBlog (failed attempt #1):
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...887&highlight=

Fnord

09-19-2006, 10:53 PM

#25 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Hand/player reading FTW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

martindcx1e

09-20-2006, 05:02 AM

#26 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

terry, i think that hand is a bit different from the usual spots people use this line in.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

ThelVlaster

09-22-2006, 06:48 PM Post subject: Good use of Check/Bomb?

#27 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posts: 222

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $25.10
UTG+1: $15.80
Hero: $22.25
MP2: $9.30
MP3: $53.75
CO: $19.65
Button: $3.65
SB: $28.40
BB: $33

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with A

2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: K

($2.35, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.5, CO calls.

Turn: 3

($5.35, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3, Hero raises to $9, CO calls.

River: 2

($23.35, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO is all-in $8.15, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $39.65

Villian is 23.3/4.7/4.0

Was the turn raise too small? Do I lead the River as played?

WhooFleuryScores

09-27-2006, 06:00 AM

#28 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Massachusetts

Posts: 918

Send a message via AIM to WhooFleuryScores

Preflop: Raise is good.

Flop: BEt is good.

Turn: I would lead out and fold to a raise. If smoothcalled I check call a decent river bet.

Fnord

09-27-2006, 06:30 AM

#29 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

ThelVlaster,

Given the amount of money behind, I think if I play it like that I would just push the turn for the absurdity of it. I certainly would stick it in on the river because worse hands will tend to call a bet but not bet themselves.

But that one really comes down to where you think you're at there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:13 AM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

Beginners Circle

Thoughts on Check-Bombing Turns with Overpairs

Play for FREE and practice your game at...