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sarbox68
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08-21-2007, 06:48 PM
Post subject: Thoughts on c-betting
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Have run bad on UB $10NL now for 2 days... down 4.5 BIs. The big losses are AIs w/ AA, KK, QQ, one kinda sketchy TT against a shortstack and a 3 way AI where I flopped the nut straight (w/36) in my hand, no flush draws against a set of 9s that hits the two-outer to the boat w/ a paired board on the River. >>sigh<<
But I'm not here to bitch about that...
After reading I think it was Anosmic's op there were some comments about paying attention to another type of leak: PFR, C-Bet, Fold. I went back and checked my sh!t for that, and know it is definitely losing me 10BBs here, 15BBs there. It's becoming more of a problem because I'm tightening up and getting more aggressive PF... which also means I miss more flops as the PFR.
So here's my thoughts on how I'm going to approach c-bets to attempt to fix this. Please pile on if you're interested...
1) I will not c-bet in EP into a 3+ way pot w/out at least TPTK on the flop.
2) I will not c-bet from LP into 3+ way pot w/out at least TPTK IF broadway card(s) in flop.
3) I will not c-bet OOP HU against a tight player w/out at least TPTK w/ A, K or Q on the flop
4) The only time I will c-bet a whiff is in position w/ low value flop (<9, no draws) against < 3 players.
5) I will c-bet less from LP. (Now I'm being more aggressive w/ broader range from LP, I'm getting killed the most by this scenario here. Hence #4... Right now losing money from the Bu, a big part of which is this issue)
6) I will watch another 20 minutes of Celebrity Poker hole cams which should solve all my problems as per an earlier post...
of course then I won't be able to talk to any of you about it....
Cheers!
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PapalRage
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Notre Dame
Posts: 309
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i dont like numbers 3 and 4. in my experience, basically every player calls single raises with basically any PP. On low flops described in 4, a lot of these players like to put you on missed overs and will probably call at least one c-bet even without setting up. However, on A, K, or Q high flops, i will c-bet a very large percentage of the time against one opponent. It makes calling with a missed pocket pair or a sc that didnt flop a monster very tough.
also, just in general, i dont like 'rules for c-betting'. i hope these are just general guidelines that you will modify based on your opponents and most importantly what you think your image at the table is. If you have raised 3 outta the last 5 hands and not shown down good cards you may not want to fire out with a missed AK. Hope that helps some.
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ndultimate.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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"rules" used loosely... more like guidelines as a starting point to deviate from based on the situation at hand.
And yes, that was helpful... thx!
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PapalRage
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Notre Dame
Posts: 309
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whoops, i just realized you were talking about 10NL and not 100 NL .
for 10 NL i think your guidelines are pretty solid. at that level, people just simply do not fold top pair. C-betting into two opponents with air is just asking for trouble against these opponents. However, as i said above there shouldnt be any hard and fast rules for your c-betting. At this level value betting strong hands is definitely the way to take advantage of their loose passive play. C-betting with air is often -EV against players who call too much. sorry if i confused you with my double post.
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ndultimate.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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 ...me playing $100NL... that's some funny sh!t right there.... 
I'll see you in about two years for that one.......
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Unibomber14
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The future
Posts: 321
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You will be surprised how soon you will get there if you play well.
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"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Unibomber14
You will be surprised how soon you will get there if you play well.
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for real. if you play good and often enough you should be there in like 3-4 months especially if you get bonuses or rb.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
3) I will not c-bet OOP HU against a tight player w/out at least TPTK w/ A, K or Q on the flop
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If villain is tight you should be more likely to cbet them since they are most likely to fold. If you miss the flop with your AQ and the flop is like K86 you should almost always cbet here vs a tight player.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
5) I will c-bet less from LP.
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You should cbet more in position than oop.
Here's something I said about cbets in an earlier thread:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
you need to cbet when it is least likely that the flop hit your opponent(s). good flops to cbet on are usually heads up ones with 1 or 2 broadway cards and no more than 2 of a suit. paired boards make for good opportunities too. flops that bring connected stuff like 678 and 8TJ are usually worse to cbet on and flops that bring 3 broadways aren't too great either unless of course you actually make a hand. i've also heard some ppl argue that cbetting flops like 235 or something similar is bad because all pocket pairs will call or raise you and it definitely doesn't look like it was "supposed" to help your hand.
when you get 2 callers you usually shouldn't cbet if your hand didn't improve much imo. sometimes you will get flops like 228 rainbow or something and you can go ahead and fire away. when there are 3+ callers then just give up the hand unless you have a good reason to bet it.
so basically bet every time unless you think there is a good chance that villain will call/raise.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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deacon_bluez
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 216
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I also keep track of how players react after I c-bet.
If a guy folds today, I might be more likely to try it again a week or a month from now vs. the same guy. And vice versa if he calls... but this might the guy to come out betting strong against on the flop if you land trips.
I also note whether I was in or out of position. Keep adding to the data.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by deacon_bluez
I also keep track of how players react after I c-bet.
If a guy folds today, I might be more likely to try it again a week or a month from now vs. the same guy. And vice versa if he calls... but this might the guy to come out betting strong against on the flop if you land trips.
I also note whether I was in or out of position. Keep adding to the data.
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for me, its easier to take notes on who "plays back" at me. i cbet a good bit, and most people fold for the reasons/situations that martin mentioned. HU pots, dry boards, highish boards (remember that most are smart enough to see that a cbet is coming on a 8 5 2 flop).
concentrate on those that continue on or play back. the ones that fold are far too frequent to waste time noting. if you dont see a note, you should habitually fire into them.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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