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dzeanah
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05-24-2006, 03:46 PM
Post subject: Thought process to go through when one goes bust
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Statesboro, GA
Posts: 95
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I've been playing for money for just a bit less than 2 weeks. It went like this:- Deposit $50 with Pokerstars
- Play until I made the $25 bonus
- Withdraw the original $50, leaving about $54.
- Do pretty good in the low/micro limit SnGs
- Suddenly go crappy in the low/micro SnGs
- Last 5-table today ($1 + $0.20) I went out 9th. Surprise.
- Busto
Now, I haven't lost anything so I'm not that upset about the money, but I guess this is my first experience with a bad run that everyone seems to talk about and write about and such. Example from my last SnG -- big stack gets a couple of bad beats, is cursing people at the table, and goes all-in. I see AA and go AI as well, followed by another player with KK.
Turns out tilty-guy had AA too, and the other joker flops 3 kings.
I know -- it happens, that's poker, I got in the the best of it, it was unavoidable, and all the rest, but a few of these in a short time period mixed in with a few mistakes of my own makes for a humbling experience.
So, my question: what do y'all do when you find yourself on a downswing? Take a week off? Dig through hands looking for holes you can plug? Read a book? Ignore it and keep playing your best game?
I think my biggest leak so far is I don't know how much to loosen up once a 1-table SnG gets down to a few players, so blinds -> short stack -> blind steals -> something like 99 v QQ -> 4th position. A lot of 4th positions. If there was one thing I would fix, it'd be my short game where short stacks want to gamble and double-up, and big stacks want to avoid big confrontations and maybe steal some blinds.
Thoughts?
(Geez - feel like I'm rambling).
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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well until you've played enough to where downswings don't really bother you too much you might want to take some time off - however long it takes for you to reset. post all big pot hands and hands you bust with on one of the forums here and read Harring on Hold'em (1 & 2) for your SNG play. most importantly play within your bankroll. don't play $5 SNG's with $50 in your account.
EDIT: weeeeeee i'm an ftr full house!
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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$5 SNG's with $50 follows the 10% of bankroll rule though, doesn't it? If you lose all 9 SNG's (rake fees won't let you do full 10), then something in your game is wrong - Also, there is a great article in the "is online poker rigged" section where they talk about the infamous "I go bust when I cash out" routine...Once you read that you understand more that its not about you cashing out, its just normal that poker has swings and if you cash out, your taking away the BR that cusions you when your on a downswing -
as for advice - I don't do well when i'm on a downswing - Basically I try to tighten up more, but this doesn't seem to help me - My best advice is to take a few weeks off - Whenever I come back refreshed I play my best - When im on a downswing, I can't seem to stop thinking about all the 2 or 3 outers players are hitting me with - take time off - also, if the $50 bothers you, play smaller stakes - if losing $50 bothers you, you are playing too big of stake - Play $2NL or something like that - I have heard of players here on 12 buy in swings...and they are good too - it happens - But if the money is a problem, you won't play well -
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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lol Martin - Of course your a full house - You only put in 67 Words per post avg - seems like your just posting short answers to build up your FTR rating 
im just kidding -
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jackvance
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05-24-2006, 04:30 PM
Post subject: Re: Thought process to go through when one goes bust
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#5 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dzeanah
(Geez - feel like I'm rambling).
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This is a very important point in your poker career. Being able to deal with misfortunes like this is just as important - if not more - than being able to calculate pot odds or perfecting your preflop play.
That being said, if I feel emotions are negatively influencing my game, it's time to quit. Rather now than later. I haven't gone bust yet, and it's not too likely anymore since the $60 I started to learn poker with has turned into $800 now ($250 in my roll, rest is cashed out). But my god, I know all about the downswings! Had a few 10 buy-in downswings etc.
I don't think you need to wait a week though. But you definately need to take a break. Do something else, like watch a movie, take a walk, read a book, visit some friends, etc. If I want to keep playing that day, I'll usually take a nap, that always resets the emotions somewhat .
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dzeanah
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Statesboro, GA
Posts: 95
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That's likely true -- I read 20 buy-ins is the magic number, and I didn't have the BR to cover that. Also, looking at it another way: I deposited by initial BR, swung up to 100% above my initial deposit, now I'm back down to where I started.
It's possible my decision to focus on the $5.50 1 table SnGs is part of the problem too -- if I'm too tight at an < 6 player table, then that may be a big handicap in these games. Looking at my overall numbers, it looks like games with slower blind structures and more players (meaning more full tables) are games where I'm much more likely to make it into the money. SnG numbers from PokerTracker: 35 games, 1st 5 time, 2nd 3 times, 3rd 4 times.
That's not good enough, I guess.
Rereading HoH wouldn't be a bad idea though.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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wait - 12 money finishes, including 5 1sts, and you don't think your playing well? out of 35 SNG's? I would say that is a very strong record -
Maybe your expectations are a tad bit high...
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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If you lose all 9 SNG's (rake fees won't let you do full 10), then something in your game is wrong
!!! This is simply not true! Something MIGHT be wrong, but dude, have you really not gone 9 SNGs without making the money? I have, multiple times, and I'm a strong winner up to the $11s.
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dzeanah
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Statesboro, GA
Posts: 95
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
wait - 12 money finishes, including 5 1sts, and you don't think your playing well? out of 35 SNG's? I would say that is a very strong record -
Maybe your expectations are a tad bit high...
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Lol. I meant "I thought I was running well, but busted anyway so..."
Maybe it's simply a BR issue.
just reloaded $50 and played another -- 1st this time.
Maybe it's just variance. Maybe it was a stack of bad beats leading to timid play ("crap, he reraised my raise, and he's got me covered....") This was also a period where I'd been tinkering with PokerAce HUD -- maybe I was relying on the stats too much and not enough on the feel of the game.
Who knows. I'm a noob, after all.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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personally I hate SNG's - I feel they are a waste of time and I can make more just playing ring games - Yeah, I have lost 9SNG's in a row and what did it tell me? Something WAS wrong with my game - $5 SNG's doesn't have pros in it - You've got amateurs who play those. If you can't place ITM out of 9 tourneys, I do think something has to be off - However, I think this question posed is the problem - He had 5 1st place finishes and 12 total ITM finishes out of 35 SNG's - That seems pretty strong to me - SO, I would say his expectations are too high - You can't win all SNG's no matter how good you are. I think the problem he made was cashing out when he made some profit - I used to do this all the time - Cash out some so I made SURE I made some money - In that case, the money means too much to you...When it means too much, you play tight and scared - He might be playing scared (after he cashed out), but I think the real problem is he has too high of expectations for SNG's - 12 ITM finishes is a good return if you ask me -
My best advice is he should read (or re-read) the Newbie Cycle of Death -
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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winning players lose 9 sng's in a row all the time. try playing nothing but sng's for a month instead of ring and you'll see. lol bite your tongue limpin. them are fightin words, i'm no post-whore!!
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thnwkd
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 436
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
If you lose all 9 SNG's (rake fees won't let you do full 10), then something in your game is wrong
!!! This is simply not true! Something MIGHT be wrong, but dude, have you really not gone 9 SNGs without making the money? I have, multiple times, and I'm a strong winner up to the $11s.
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roflmao.... no offense dude but i found this funny for some reason.
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Success is how high you bounce after hitting bottom.
IslandGrinder
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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-BAD MATH-
Ignore this.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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thnwkd, yes, it does look kinda dumb! I guess I was trying to make it look like I wasn't boasting and in the process made myself look like some "big fish in small pond" dick
Andy, I make that an ROI of 9%, not 98% - $210 return on $192.50 investment?
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
thnwkd, yes, it does look kinda dumb! I guess I was trying to make it look like I wasn't boasting and in the process made myself look like some "big fish in small pond" dick
Andy, I make that an ROI of 9%, not 98% - $210 return on $192.50 investment? |
Yea, my bad, haha you are right. I always messed those ROI calculations up, makes a little more sense now.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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For 10 player SNGs with 3 places paying, an average player will bust out 9 times in a row a little over 4% of the time. It's not all that unlikely.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
For 10 player SNGs with 3 places paying, an average player will bust out 9 times in a row a little over 4% of the time. It's not all that unlikely.
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not unlikely - well 4% is the same as pulling a 2 outer on the river...it happens but it's not likely to -
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bantam222
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 208
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
lol Martin - Of course your a full house - You only put in 67 Words per post avg - seems like your just posting short answers to build up your FTR rating
im just kidding - |
im not sure how the WPP works, but i assume people who post hands, and tournys for review, that adds up to a lot of works because all the spaces in the hand historys. So WPP isn't too good for finding out how much people contribue to the forums.
Also quoting peoples long posts would add up
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
personally I hate SNG's - I feel they are a waste of time and I can make more just playing ring games - Yeah, I have lost 9SNG's in a row and what did it tell me? Something WAS wrong with my game - $5 SNG's doesn't have pros in it - You've got amateurs who play those. If you can't place ITM out of 9 tourneys, I do think something has to be off
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This an your post saying its as likely as a two-outer shows a misunderstanding of poker in general. It happens 4% of the time? 4% of the time you play 9 SNGs? So if you play 225 SNGs then it will happen once? If somebody play SNGs as their main game and do not at one point have a streak of 9 tourneys OOTM then they are running incredibly well and havent been playing very long. It will happen.
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