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Iconoclastic
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07-07-2004, 05:49 AM
Post subject: A thorny situation
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 324
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UltimateBet play chip 50-100 No limit.
KK in middle position. Raise big at maniac table. 5 callers.
Flop comes 4 Q 2 rainbow. I bet pot which is around 5000 of the 7000 chips I have left. Only 1 player, with position on me, calls.
Turn is another Q.
What do you do?
I'll give what I actually did in the hand and how it turned out after a few of the FTR experts weigh in.
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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I would have pushed all in on the flop and wouldn't have to make the turn decision.
If I did play it this way though, I'd throw out my last 2000 chips on the turn in a blink, not a lot i'm going to be doing with 2000 chips left anyway.
If it was a cash game I'd curse myself for not pushing all in on the flop and push the rest anyway.
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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It is a tough call in this context ie. play money and maniac table. I would like to know how well you know is play. Does he bluff? Have you seen him play garbage because it is play money or is he a solid player. If he called your big preflop bet and he is not an idiot maybe give him credit for AA AK AQ.
I think you are pot committed at this point. I also think you are not in terrible shape because only 2 cards in the deck really hurt you and that is if he has a Q or AA. Meanwhile you have a strong overpair so you have a couple choices. First, check it and see what he does. If he is a poor player maybe he'll give you a free river, or he'll think he is cute and slowplay his trips and you can catch the miracle K on the river. If he bets weak by not putting you all in I think it is an easy call, all in.
What if he has AA and now he is just as scared as you are of the turn. If you push it all in maybe you force him to fold the better hand.
Final answer: because you have so many chips in the pot I check the turn with the intention of calling all in.
If this were a tournament and not a cash game, I would check and fold to a strong bet unless you had a good read/feeling.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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doubleup
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 109
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Quote:
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I'd throw out my last 2000 chips on the turn in a blink, not a lot i'm going to be doing with 2000 chips left anyway.
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Exactly. All-in.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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I don't think it matters. Might as well push.
If you check and he bets out, your pot-committed enough that you have to call.
He's pretty much in the same situation if you push..
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Iconoclastic
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 324
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Here's more details on the hand. And what I actually did.
I hadn't sat at the table long and didn't have great notes on each player. The player that called my 5000 chip raise did not act like a maniac in the hands I saw. So I put him at tight.
I thought about the odds. At a 50-100 table against a tight player, the chances of a player CALLING but not raising me all in with a Q in their hand was pretty damn good. I was ALMOST SURE OF IT. I felt like there was a 95% chance he had a Q.
So when the turn came Q. I decided then to fold to an all in raise.
He raised 2000, I folded. I had to bet 2000 to win a 20000 pot, and I felt that there was a greater than 90% chance he had a Q.
I was not pot committed because I felt there was such a tiny chance that I could win the pot, and 10% of the pot is still a pretty large amount, especially considering it's a ring game and not a tourney so losing all ur chips doesnt hurt too bad.
Unfortunately, it turns out he had A 5 off (4 Q 2 Q). I had no idea he would be loose enough to make a HUGE mistake and call a gutshot with 1 overcard for almost all-in.
I'm not sure if I made a mistake by overestimating the chance he had of a Q or if I made the long-term right choice by trusting my instincts, which turned out to be wrong in this case.
I didnt push All-in at the turn because I was playing at a maniac table with 5 other callers at the flop. I felt that the chances of someone with two pair or better at the flop was significant enough that I should bet less and indeed fold to an All-in reraise.
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AceKing
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 67
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iconoclastic
Here's more details on the hand. And what I actually did.
I hadn't sat at the table long and didn't have great notes on each player. The player that called my 5000 chip raise did not act like a maniac in the hands I saw. So I put him at tight.
I thought about the odds. At a 50-100 table against a tight player, the chances of a player CALLING but not raising me all in with a Q in their hand was pretty damn good. I was ALMOST SURE OF IT. I felt like there was a 95% chance he had a Q.
So when the turn came Q. I decided then to fold to an all in raise.
He raised 2000, I folded. I had to bet 2000 to win a 20000 pot, and I felt that there was a greater than 90% chance he had a Q.
I was not pot committed because I felt there was such a tiny chance that I could win the pot, and 10% of the pot is still a pretty large amount, especially considering it's a ring game and not a tourney so losing all ur chips doesnt hurt too bad.
Unfortunately, it turns out he had A 5 off (4 Q 2 Q). I had no idea he would be loose enough to make a HUGE mistake and call a gutshot with 1 overcard for almost all-in.
I'm not sure if I made a mistake by overestimating the chance he had of a Q or if I made the long-term right choice by trusting my instincts, which turned out to be wrong in this case.
I didnt push All-in at the turn because I was playing at a maniac table with 5 other callers at the flop. I felt that the chances of someone with two pair or better at the flop was significant enough that I should bet less and indeed fold to an All-in reraise.
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Hard to learn anything from play money rooms because of guys like that who just don't care.
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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LOL Aceking did you really have to quote the whole post!
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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AceKing
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 67
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Did you really need to post about me qouting him? 
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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Did you really need to post about me posting about you quoting him ?
500th post wasted on you
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Did I really need to post about you guys posting about each other posting about each other?
No ... I really didn't. Sorry.
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AceKing
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 67
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
Did I really need to post about you guys posting about each other posting about each other?
No ... I really didn't. Sorry.
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ttanaka
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,184
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All this discussion over a play money hand?!?
Actually I guess there's more discussion about posting about someone's posting... and on... and so forth...
Hey Iconoclastic, it's really, really difficult to develop your game at the play money table, the hand you posted was interesting, but very rare in the sense that your opponent would play a gut shot straight draw (LOL!) in that manner.
I would be very careful about developing bad habits at these play money tables.
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