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bjsaust
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06-12-2008, 10:07 AM
Post subject: They're not fish!
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Ok, they are  .
But thats not the point. The point is that every time I read a thread where the read is "xx/yy fish" I cringe in my seat. Probably the worst read you can have other than no read at all. Identify WHY they're a fish. What traits are they displaying? What patterns do they exhibit? THEN think how you can exploit that.
People post something like "villain was 70/10 over n hands, so I did xxxxx postflop".
Wat!!??
Why are you using a pre-flop read (preflop stats) to decide how to play postflop? Some fish play loose passive pre-flop and then fold to aggression on the flop without the nuts. Some fish play loose passive pre-flop and call down with any piece of the board and sometimes less. You should play completely different against the two!!. That means pre-flop as well as postflop. The hands you play against them, and how you get to the flop with those hands should also change. Play right and both types are free money, play wrong and it could be you going busto.
If your only read is "fish" then you're not trying hard enough, or dont have enough information. Pay attention to the players who seem particularly bad, and identify what they're doing that makes them bad, then exploit that. Dont make the mistake of playing in ways that actually help their mistakes work for them.
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Just playing to improve.
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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Good post. Having both preflop and postflop reads is very important as players can sometimes act totally differently preflop vs. postflop.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Your a fish
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Monty3038
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06-12-2008, 03:40 PM
Post subject: Re: They're not fish!
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#4 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Ok, they are .
But thats not the point. The point is that every time I read a thread where the read is "xx/yy fish" I cringe in my seat. Probably the worst read you can have other than no read at all. Identify WHY they're a fish. What traits are they displaying? What patterns do they exhibit? THEN think how you can exploit that.
People post something like "villain was 70/10 over n hands, so I did xxxxx postflop".
Wat!!??
Why are you using a pre-flop read (preflop stats) to decide how to play postflop? Some fish play loose passive pre-flop and then fold to aggression on the flop without the nuts. Some fish play loose passive pre-flop and call down with any piece of the board and sometimes less. You should play completely different against the two!!. That means pre-flop as well as postflop. The hands you play against them, and how you get to the flop with those hands should also change. Play right and both types are free money, play wrong and it could be you going busto.
If your only read is "fish" then you're not trying hard enough, or dont have enough information. Pay attention to the players who seem particularly bad, and identify what they're doing that makes them bad, then exploit that. Dont make the mistake of playing in ways that actually help their mistakes work for them. |
Good post and point... BUT... in the beginner realm, which I still feel inclined to believe I am based on my pitiful ROI%, having even the slightlest clue as towards how they are playing helps... I know it is semantics but in reality a lot of times I think beginners such as myself make a determination on a player based on one or two hands, often early in our experience with them... for example... he raised 83suited pre-flop from EP, he's a donk/fish.
Or he called a 4xBB raise from EP in MP with nothing, he's a fish.
Those simple one handed analysis labels we stick on players as beginners helps us start to grasp the hand reading, the problem I think is that we see one hand and make the label, rather than taking detailled notes such as "calls from MP any raise with anything" rather than the quick note "fish".
Ok, I'm digressing and getting way too into it, but I think a lot of beginning players don't take the time to watch either close enough to take detailed notes or take the time between hands to make those detailed notes... and I think in lower stakes that doesn't always hurt you... because players have no idea what they are doing (i.e.-fish) and will act exactly how you didn't expect them to... (i.e.-fish who calls anything in your notes suddenly seems to only call with AA/KK).
Ok, what was the original point?
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Ok, but what you're getting at is the starting point. That kind of information is great, but did he call down with a draw with 83s? Did he get AI on a lucky flop? Did he check down? The guy who called an EP raise with nothing, did he just fold to a c-bet, try to take the pot away if the EP guy checked, call down with bottom pair?
Once you see how they play those crap hands postflop, you can exploit them.
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Just playing to improve.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Ok, but what you're getting at is the starting point. That kind of information is great, but did he call down with a draw with 83s? Did he get AI on a lucky flop? Did he check down? The guy who called an EP raise with nothing, did he just fold to a c-bet, try to take the pot away if the EP guy checked, call down with bottom pair?
Once you see how they play those crap hands postflop, you can exploit them.
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nh bjsaust
I read whole thread, and I agree that taking a note about what SPECIFIC crap hand he played is more much helpful. I've posted elsewhere that at the micros, different "fish" overplay different kinds of hands.
Some frequent "overplay" categories I've found are:
1. Overplays Ax (or Axs, or both)
2. Overplays soooooted cards
3. Overplays small connectors, 1-gappers, etc
Three different villains (see above) could have 30/8 HUD stats over 200 hands and be playing very different types of cards. I still suck at poker, but I'm getting better at understanding from 1 or 2 showdowns what kinds of crap to expect certain players to open.
Good stuff to keep thinking about.
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Robb, you stole my thunder. 
Basically, if someone is constantly spewing chips, then yes they are a fish. Calling you down to the river or AI shoves with TPTK or even TPWK (as I've seen even more of) is a well-known fish characteristic.
Oh and, the "...but they were suited" line makes me sick but oh, so happy when I'm raking in their chips.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Oh, for sure Rob. Most of my notes start out specific: "Called PF raise from BB with K7o, led 742r flop and pushed over a raise with weak TP". After about 3 specific hands worth of notes, I try to summarise "Plays ATC from the blinds even if raised, very agg with any piece of board, wont fold any pair".
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Just playing to improve.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Oh, for sure Rob. Most of my notes start out specific: "Called PF raise from BB with K7o, led 742r flop and pushed over a raise with weak TP". After about 3 specific hands worth of notes, I try to summarise "Plays ATC from the blinds even if raised, very agg with any piece of board, wont fold any pair".
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Same here. I tend to start my newest note at the top, and so the summary comes first with specific reads below. But I suck at taking notes, and need to get much better at it. It's amazing what 2 or 3 specific notes adds to the HUD read.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I'm not sure if you use HM, but you can add notes in it. Either from the player profile page, or directly from the HUD ingame. Means I can add normal notes like I would on the site, except into HM while playing, and I can also add notes later while doing session review and they'll be there next time I play.
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Just playing to improve.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
I'm not sure if you use HM, but you can add notes in it. Either from the player profile page, or directly from the HUD ingame. Means I can add normal notes like I would on the site, except into HM while playing, and I can also add notes later while doing session review and they'll be there next time I play.
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you can do that with pt2.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Really? Lol, I never even found notes at all in PT2, guess I didnt think to look for it  .
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Just playing to improve.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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I'd just like to add that it's also bad to assume someone who has stats that are "too tight" or "too loose" automatically plays bad in general or that preflop stats have some direct correlation to how they play postflop.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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