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thizzSantaCruz

09-13-2007, 05:38 AM Post subject: theory behind donking into someone

#1 (permalink)

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Me and another FTR poster were having a pretty interesting talk about the concept of betting into the preflop raiser in NLHE. My default play has always been to check to the raiser, and reevaluate after he makes his play. I raise a lot of c-bets in this situation or smooth call behind if I think he will fire again on a turn. I very rarely every bet into an opponenet. I am not sure why I have never done this, I think mostly because I just read somewhere that checking to the raiser is pretty std. NLT&P also suggests check-raising with air/made hands/draws in this situation.

I have alwyas assumed that solid tags will raise these bets into them when they have the initiative with a wide range of holdings becasue that is what I like to do a lot. Once again I seem to be giving my opponenets too much credit. At 50nl I doubt they will do this a lot.

So now the real question is when do you guys lead into an opponenet? When are you checking to the raiser and reevaluating after they make a play. What plays do you use to balance these situations?

I know this is really broad, hopefully it will start a good discussion. I think this is one part of my game that definantly needs to be developed.

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djzcko

09-13-2007, 02:03 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 285

I generally don't lead into an opponent who is the pf raiser. The reason I don't is twofold: 1. If I have a hand I want them to bet so I can c/r or smooth call and let them fire the turn. 2. I want to see what they do on the flop.

One ideal situation to donk the flop is to get an aggressive player to raise you. You will get raised 99% of the time if you donk into an aggressive player, esp if the bet is weak. You may also want to donk the flop against passive opponents to get them to fold their hand when they miss the flop.

I am curious as well for those that donk the flop a lot--what situations are you donking the flop and why? It seems to be a more common move recently...

Pants_101

09-13-2007, 02:10 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2006

Location: Nottingham UK

Posts: 442

I will lead into the raiser if I flop a set oop on a drawy board. I want to get the money in before the draw completes and kills my action so I look to get raised on the flop and either push over or call and check push the turn. I don't bother to balance the play though cos no one would notice at 25nl

Must get more aggressive - Tonight we dine in $25NL! rah rah rah! etc

Pelion

09-13-2007, 02:17 PM

#4 (permalink)

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If someone raises my blind from a steal position i sometimes call and donk most flops.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

pgil

09-13-2007, 02:43 PM

#5 (permalink)

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I like to lead when I think my opp has missed overs. I also usually do it when I flop a set, 2 pr type hand, as well as a lot of draws.

I enjoy it because it forces your opponent to either take the lead back from you by making a large raise and balloon the pot, or to go on the defensive and allow you to control the hand, at least on the next street.

It also sets up the ever fun turn check-raise against habitual overcard chasers/floaters.

I have been doing it less lately because a lot of opponents have been min-raising me on the flop, and I am not always sure what this means. It used to mean a draw, then a set/2 pr, then it was also a TP hand, now it is also a bluff.

"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce

Warpe

09-13-2007, 03:21 PM

#6 (permalink)

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I am a donk.

DRAWS: I donk with strong draws to take the initiative and represent strength. Often, I get a fold if villain has missed the flop or they'll call and fold to a second barrel on a blank turn. If there are overs on the flop that have likely hit them I'll still donk because it looks like the flop has hit me and TPTK/GK hands will play cautiously. If I get raised it's usually a call and reevalute on the turn. I prefer playing draws this way over a c/c line because it gives me more ways to win. I balance this with c/r lines to pick off c-bets, but it's either donk or c/r and very, very rarely c/c as this is such an obvious draw line. Yes, you can and will lose some value by getting villains to fold instead of picking off their c-bets with a c/r, but I'd hazard that this is balanced by a lot of pots that you pick up that you wouldn't otherwise.

SETS: If I've called a PFR with pockets out of the blinds or limp/called OOP with small pockets and hit my set, I'll donk whenever the flop is draw heavy because I want to make my opp pay to continue. I'll c/r ONLY if I'm very confident opp will bet, but 'bet your sets' is never a bad rule to go by, whether the flop is draw heavy or not.

BLUFFS/SEMI-BLUFFS: If I've called a PFR OOP and missed completely or hit middle or bottom, I'll donk sometimes on a junk flop that's likely missed the PFRer. This is especially good if they've seen me play a set this way. Again, you'll often get folds from overs that miss, but it's a move I use sparingly, never against calling stations or chronic floaters.

For me, donking is a good 'give action to get action', laggy image making tool. If you only bet your made hands, opps pick up on that and will only continue against you when they're strong. My take is that they will often continue against you with weaker hands if they know you have a tendency to take stabs. I like to keep them a bit off-balance and always have them wondering whether I'm small-ball bluffing or not. I think this pays off in other hands in the metagame of the session.

Miffed22001

09-13-2007, 06:40 PM

#7 (permalink)

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if the only time you lead into an opponent is to trap more money in the pot when you have a set your balance is crap and you are easy to read.

Now go and figure out how to balance your range against a pfr'er. Also, start thinking about how your opps range hit the flop, what he thinks of you and how he'll react to your lead.

Warpe

09-18-2007, 06:24 AM

#8 (permalink)

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A double donk:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($110.85)
Hero ($100.90)
BB ($106.50)
UTG ($98.50)
MP ($48.80)
CO ($102)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4

, 4

.
2 folds, CO raises to $3.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $3, 1 fold.

Flop: ($8) 8

, 3

, 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $5, CO calls $5.

Turn: ($18) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $14, CO folds.

Final Pot: $18

biondino

09-18-2007, 12:15 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Donking means that the PFRer has to think about how to respond and can't take control of the hand (well he can, by re-raising, but certainly at $100NL and under this happens fairly rarely). So you are making him define his hand far more than if you just check.

Warpe

09-18-2007, 03:02 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Canuckistan

Posts: 3,905

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($214.55)
MP ($101.10)
Button ($105.65)
SB ($102.65)
Hero ($100.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4

, 4

.
2 folds, Button raises to $3.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.50.

Flop: ($7.50) 8

, 7

, 5

(2 players)
Hero bets $5, Button calls $5.

Turn: ($17.50) T

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($17.50) 5

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $17.50

Results in white below:
Hero has 4s 4c (two pair, fives and fours).
Button has Qc Ad (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $17.50.

Warpe

09-18-2007, 04:44 PM

#11 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Canuckistan

Posts: 3,905

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($90)
MP ($221.45)
Button ($209.50)
SB ($74.65)
Hero ($102.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7

, 8

.
2 folds, Button raises to $4, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($8) 2

, 9

, 5

(3 players)
Hero bets $4, Button folds.

Final Pot: $8

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