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Keith
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04-19-2009, 09:23 AM
Post subject: Thanks spenda and tip for Wonderland
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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This is down to Spenda's tip to start new tables slightly adapted in that I just stayed on the same table each time that it broke up and its also maybe an insight to wonderland. The other night we were playing on the same table ( you didnt mention the AA vs KK fish stacking hand in the downswing thread )where he left saying that the fish had gone in the chatbox.
Can't help wondering if you are habitually changing tables and therefore only getting limited hand histories on your HUD to get reads on your opponents.this was one of my tables last night and is by far the most succesfull table session yet.
stats are
vpip- pfr- pf Agg- bb /100 (hands)
att to steal- fold SB to steal -fold BB to steal- 3bet%- 4bet%
cbet%-foldto cbet%-river bet%- wtsd- W$SD
One downside of staying on the same table when it breaks isthat your vpip/pfr stats look horrible due to the headsup /shorthanded hands that you play waiting for more fish. The upsides that i found last night were that
- the single tabling fish keep coming rather than the multi tabling nits
- it makes it easier to concentrate on each new player as they arrive to build up a bit of a read. Go to a new table and you have to figure everyone else out all at the same time.
- having a big stack at the table will draw the fish hoping to double up
- having the big stack can help stealing the fish's blinds, seems to give your raises more weight probably along the lines he's won a lot , he must have a good hand when he's raising (yeah right)
- for the 5NL players out there theres a good read on nickanddim in the pic to which you can add chases gutshots had him all in with 55 on a 5j4Q, river came a 3 and he turned over A2.
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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I don't quite understand. What exactly was Spenda's advice? It sounds like something about changing tables, but you obviously haven't done that... unless by adapted you meant do the opposite. Also, what is wonderland?
You already touched on this, but I would just shut off my HUD when it gets 2-3 handed. Even fish usually adapt to these conditions in some way or another.
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<SrslySirius> Hal Lubarsky, my nemesis.
<SaltLick> are you seriously losing to a blind guy
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Spenda's advice was to start opening tables , rather than joining full ones. I just stayed on the same table as they broke up so was effectively either sat on my own at times or continued playing heads up.
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amir is cool
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 108
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can you elaborate a little more here im not understanding why you would want to sit at a table all waiting for people while there are a thousand tables full of fish
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Quote:
[21:38] <dranger> WTF HAPPENED WHEN I WENT TO BOOT CAMP
[21:40] <kiwiMark> THERE IS A NEW PRESIDENT OF THE UNITES STATES CALLED BARACK OBAMA AND HE'S NOT VERY WHITE
[21:40] <kiwiMark> THIS IS NOT A LEVEL.
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Keith_MM
Spenda's advice was to start opening tables , rather than joining full ones. I just stayed on the same table as they broke up so was effectively either sat on my own at times or continued playing heads up.
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Ah, I understand. That's a clever idea.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by amir is cool
can you elaborate a little more here im not understanding why you would want to sit at a table all waiting for people while there are a thousand tables full of fish
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That's not necessarily true at all limits. At certain times, even the micros can be infested with multitabling nitbots. I think the idea here is to avoid those people, who typically try to play full tables.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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lol, just happened to see my name in the title of a thread, i never really look.
Yeah, Spenda was saying to start tables and wanted to make a thread around the subject.
That is a SICK stack size though Keith, i'm interested to find out more about this stuff, anything to make me stop losing.
Yeah, that AA hand is RARE mate, i get the odd heater which keeps me at topped back up to $205 while all the rest of the time i'm getting blown out by super fish as soon as i sit down. I think it worked coz my network froze and i missed the action! Can you sat 'double slit experiment'? Maybe my downswing is the quantum observational effect of tilt lol.
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Seriously guys , when the table breaks stay there , the fish come swimming in and donate. Bought in for 5$
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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MOTHER OF GOD KEITH. I am LUCKY if i break even in a sesh these days, or make a buck.
Also, i can never ever find semi empty tables, well i sort of did last night and within ten hands the table was full again.
WTF?!!?!??
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linaker
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 70
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Thanks. I had not seen spenda's advice but what you are saying makes sense. Last time I was looking for cash tables, there was one with 40%+ seeing the flop and 7 in the waiting list. The other tables with lower percentages had just 1 or 2 waiting. Just that told me that maybe going for the juiciest table is not too wise, because obviously others have the same idea.
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wonderland
MOTHER OF GOD KEITH. I am LUCKY if i break even in a sesh these days, or make a buck.
Also, i can never ever find semi empty tables,
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In that case start a new table
Quote:
well i sort of did last night and within ten hands the table was full again.
WTF?!!?!??
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hence Spenda's advice to start a new table.Most probably the people filling the table will be fishy , rather than the multi tabling regs. If they come in and are all tight as hell leave and start another one. Once you can get a stack going ,the fish will come faster.
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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what times are you playing at? I'm generally playing 10pm -2am uk time and it seems to get fishier after midnight
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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Where you based?
Weeell, it's funny coz i build my role from 5 to 10nl by playing as soon as i got in from work at 5pm uk time (12pm east US) and then suddenly i entered the twighlight zone and sort of realised that time was becoming a total nit fest. So i've been trying a pop at later times and it does seem a tad more fishy.
I shall try starting a table this eve at 10pm ish.
I'm so fackin jealouse though. Those two results are rediculous. Maybe we can start one together... tag team! ha, what a pun!!
Gonna do another end of month review thread soon and i can show my humiliating graph!
Edit: What's your headsup game like? mine's rusty.
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
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if you're UK, any time after 10pm (when people are returning from pub) up until 1/2am is fish central.
Don't know which sites you're playing on, but I strongly recommend playing on a fishy Eurosite (I'm on Betfair) with good RB. Don't mess around on Pstars microstakes.
Eurosites are mostly Brits, who are mostly drunk and gambling (alot of them are sport betting on BF and "try out" poker). EZ game.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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now HERE is a discussion worth having.
Don't mess around on stars microstakes? I'd like you to elaborate on that as much as possible pleeez. Basically, why?
So the question is, to chase the fish and make the moniez, or stay put and get tested to fuck. I have thought about trying other sites to see how the culture differs.
Had a maniac, actual maniac, on my right last night. He was ten betting all in pre flop with anything. Or 3betting ANYONE and then pounding the flop. I got TPTK (well, K kicker KJ with J high board). I had raised, headsup. Shit had J9 and hit two pair. I ALWAYS GIVE MY CHIPS TO MANIACS.
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 701
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WillburForce
Eurosites are mostly Brits, who are mostly drunk and gambling (alot of them are sport betting on BF and "try out" poker). EZ game.
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I oughta smash my teacup over your head...
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WillburForce
if you're UK, any time after 10pm (when people are returning from pub) up until 1/2am is fish central.
Don't know which sites you're playing on, but I strongly recommend playing on a fishy Eurosite (I'm on Betfair) with good RB. Don't mess around on Pstars microstakes. |
I'm curently playing stars to clear the initial deposit bonus , month and a half left time wise and 250 fpps to go .I'm still sorting my game and getting used to playing more tables.Started playing 3 yesterday. What I found weird was that when I was 2 tabling I was running 31/22 ish across both tables , last nights 3 tables were moving more towards 36/29. I expected that I'd either play the same or tighter playing an extra table but the three tables seemed to converge towards this looser stat over ~300 hands per table.
I want to get to 4 tabling 6 max , so that once the stars bonus deadline has passed i can then move to either some UK bookies sites who are mainly on IPoker and clear there initial deposit bonuses which from what I can tell are mainly going to be a function of putting in a large number of hands.It was partly the reason I experimented with 10NL FR earlier in the month , but I was coming off a break after a downswing and moving to a different style of play was too many changes at once. I now have confidence back in my play and I'm starting to feel like I know what I'm doing.
Hand charts have gone out of the window and I'm trying to play my opponents and not necessarily just my cards. I'll showdown some shitty hands with small pots , so that combined with my table image when I do get a decent hand that I'm prepared to stack off with , the fish are less likely to believe me and stack off with 2nd pair or worse.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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Quote:
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once the stars Bonus deadline has passed i can then move to either some UK bookies sites who are mainly on iPoker
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Could you elaborate on this please, what's the difference? bonuses or player pool?
and...
Quote:
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Don't mess around on stars microstakes?
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again, this please.
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
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this is just my opinion (though shared with other Brits I've spoken to).
Stars micro-stakes is clearly beatable first off. I know, been there done it. But even at $5nl there are regs grinding who've all looked at the other site, and have a vague idea....
But when I started playing on Betfair (randomly out of anger after some silly beats on Stars - obv standard, but at the time "OMG Rigged!"), I couldn't believe how bad the play was. Yes there are a few regs on most levels ($4nl is the lowest I think), but the fish during peak hours are unbelievable. Serious head scratch bad.
When you factor in the RB you can get (30%) and the fish, to me it's a no-brainer. Most Yanks on here would love to access to the Euro-sites, you should use your advantage.
If you are interested PM me or any other Brit before signing up. They could sort out a RB deal for you.
I still play on Stars for MTT's or if traffic is really slow, but you can always find a fishy cash game after 10pm I find.
but - this isn't to say you don't have to know how to play!!! Yes they're fish, but you gotta catch them fish!
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Seasider
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bangor UK
Posts: 563
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Yes, the Betfair afternoon games are pretty good as well. However there is limited S&G or full ring action and Limit Hold Em' is pretty much dead (wtf I've not seen this on the telly!?!?!).
The software is just not up with the big boys tho, it eats resources and crashes a bit. For example last saturday night at peak time the entire server went down for a few hours.
The player pool being quite small also means that the other regs. will build up a bigger database on you more quickly. However this cuts both ways I guess. At micro levels I prefer cold hard rakeback cash in my hands rather than Fpp's.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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Keith... you genius, check this out:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...mm-t84653.html
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HarleyGuy13
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,226
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So I decided this sounded pretty intrigueing and I wanted to give it a whirl. Now I recently moved upto 10nl but thought if I was going to experiment I'd do it down one level. So I opened up three 5nl tables and waited a few minutes. Sure enough they started coming. The first hand or two I wasn't sure if I was to interested in the HU action. I decided I would be my nitty self. Hell it didn't take anytime at all and the chips started rolling in. Didn't have a lot of time but I did end up pretty good! 
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"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it  |
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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let's keep this shit underground boys.
the first rule of fish club is....
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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...to tell more fish to join the small tables that we start?
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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...very good Boog, carry on.
Dear Fish,
I am writing to inform you of a great way to play poker!...
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 701
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...welcome to ftr guys.
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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Poker Orifice
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Flush
Join Date: May 2008
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 324
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This actually sounds like a pretty good idea (opening up a table and waiting for the fish to come and take the bait).
I mostly play MTTs & SNGs but will also occassionally multi-table some micro 6-MaxNL. I've always just used a table-finder tool to find decent tables to play on... but I think I like this idea here, lol.
How true that many noobs are going to be scrolling the lobby looking for tables that aren't full to play on so why not open up a few?... I'll give it a try. I've got a couple of accounts that I still need to clear the bonus on that I rarely play on.... might be perfect for this (anyone play on Titan or new Doyles?.. I rarely do but am thinking of checking it out on there).
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"SEIBORG"
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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this would be really cool if Stars started to reward ppl for opening tables, I think UB used to do that back before they cheated their customers out of millions.
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
this would be really cool if Stars started to reward ppl for opening tables, I think UB used to do that back before they cheated their customers out of millions. |
I was actually thinking the same thing. I know a few poker rooms do...but they are usually the smaller ones with less action. I don't see Pokerstars doing that any time soon. 
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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One thing I can't make my mind up about , is whether sitting on a large stack attracts or repels the sharks.In the one table above Navie was an ideal wingman covering my arse. I was stealing his blinds like mad and folding to any aggression from him. And generally getting heads up with the short stacking $2 fish who aimed to double up and leave.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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if i sat at a table and saw someone with a 5x buy-in stack i'd be wary of them. Speshly if i saw their stats seemed strong and realised they were an ok player.
Yeah, wtf with all the $2 fish! here's a promise and a symptom of what we mean by starting tables attracting a different type of player: start a table, the first few people to join will join with $2 stacks. It's weird. Either that or like $2.46 stack... ??? who buys in for that!? But just watch. Soon as they do, you can preeetty much go: fish.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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BooG and I putzed around with this stratemgee last night.
AA 3 times, KK 1 time all got crushed. I ended up down a full 3 buy ins...
Only once did I get all the money in as not favorite AAvs888 on the flop after 3-betting the opponent. He made a smallish bet, I popped him back for size of the pot, he wtfshoved another like 45 cents over that, and I called.
All of the others, were AA vs Q4 on a Q63r board or KK vs 83 on a 782 board...
I wanted to puke. That having been said, I'm really looking forward to trying this again. Takes a real genious to get it ai with Q4.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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Shit Ragnar, suckage.
This IS the pitfall with playing the uber fish. They're equity is balls preflop but figuring out what it is post flop can be a nightmare.
An issue i've faced since starting poker.
Must be just shit variance, but should catch up with you if you keep trying.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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if there is another mention of a bad beat I'm locking this thread
the same will go for any other thread wonderland posts in for the remainder of his career at FTR (outside of the Tilt forum obv).
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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The hammer comes DOWN!
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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remember what i said?
dad, taking his belt off.
where's mother!
I didn't say fuck all about <insert term here> anyway.
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
BooG and I putzed around with this stratemgee last night.
AA 3 times, KK 1 time all got crushed. I ended up down a full 3 buy ins...
I wanted to puke. That having been said, I'm really looking forward to trying this again. Takes a real genious to get it ai with Q4.
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when it goes wrong against the fish it can go wrong quickly. If you look at my 10k stats post theres a 4 buyin dip near the end , thankfully recovered 3 buyins that session on the same tables. It all comes down to value betting them and getting a nit on your left. Don't bet and bloat the pot against the stations when you miss.Just the basics really and don't be surprised when they luckbox an all in preflop win with crap against your premium hands.
The other way it can go wrong is when a decent heads up player arrives on your table and no one else comes ............help .............I just play very slowly then and give the fish a chance.
Having said that the results are there in my graph , i was going nowhere until I started to playthis way. I think some of my improvements are basically down to a return of my confidence in what i'm actually doing and a big stack does seem to attract the fish. What I haven't tried to do yet is open up a table 200bb deep, would be interesting to see if that brings the fish quicker at the start of a session.
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Looking at Boog's op thread he posted atn AA hand, not sure if it was from a started table , BUT it was a Full ring table. Could that be a downfall in the strategy in that you end up playing multiple fish all seeingthe flop with assorted junk and therefore much smaller chance that your premium hands are going to stand up purely cos someone will flop 2 pair or flush/straight draws .
I play LAGGY normally and maybe this strategy suits my style of play against these sort of opponents and maybe not so good for a TAG.Generally i'm seeing quite a lot of flops , mainly in position and if I hit i'm raising and making it a big pot , if i miss it usually ends up checking down and a small pot.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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Keith, are you normally lag anyway? i found i lagged it up spontaneously at these tables. Like 30/22 ish.
I'd open up 4 tables and do very little if anything from positions other than CO + BU. Once you do take down some nice pots, your cbets get more respect.
Issue i'm having is when a maniac sits to my left. I got constantly 3bet in these spots by this one guy and couldn't handle it. Would call with my AQs, miss totally out of position and get fucked. But this sort of thing is unusual at 5nl. Playing against a maniac is like playing russian roulette with a suicide bomber.
But with stations, like the ones Ragnar was talking about, just know their range is wiiiiide and don't get it all with with top pair. Value bet a bit thin and if you see something suspect, maybe check if they're not agro enough to blow you off your hand. You can town them on your bigger hands.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
BooG and I putzed around with this stratemgee last night.
AA 3 times, KK 1 time all got crushed. I ended up down a full 3 buy ins...
Only once did I get all the money in as not favorite AAvs888 on the flop after 3-betting the opponent. He made a smallish bet, I popped him back for size of the pot, he wtfshoved another like 45 cents over that, and I called.
All of the others, were AA vs Q4 on a Q63r board or KK vs 83 on a 782 board...
I wanted to puke. That having been said, I'm really looking forward to trying this again. Takes a real genious to get it ai with Q4.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
if there is another mention of a bad beat I'm locking this thread
the same will go for any other thread wonderland posts in for the remainder of his career at FTR (outside of the Tilt forum obv).
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Someone read this stuff out loud for Hellen Keller here, so she can put her hand over your lips and be sure to emphasize the bolded part.
I'll take those type of bad beats at regular intervals for the rest of my life. Just sucks that I had to have 3 of them in a row on top of a tiltshove over middleset.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Someone read this stuff out loud for Hellen Keller here, so she can put her mouth over your lips and be sure to emphasize the bolded part.
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LOL @ Helen Keller
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Keith_MM
Looking at Boog's op thread he posted atn AA hand, not sure if it was from a started table , BUT it was a Full ring table.
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That hand was indeed from a started table (not sure if it was me or Ragnar who started it). Most of my playing time in that session came from started tables...and I had a sick session all around. That hand was a bit of a cooler...but easy pickins all night long.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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