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Tens in position but facing small bets on every street

  
 
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surviva316
Old 04-15-2009, 05:57 PM     Post subject: Tens in position but facing small bets on every street #1 (permalink)  
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 Let me first say that i KNOW that i didn't play this right. This is more of a general question about a situation i see quite often. I have a hand that i know is beat but i keep being strung by small bets because the math of the situation has me by the balls.

villain is a very standard 22/ten micro player.

i guess my question is FIRST: concretely, when do i fold here? i'm assuming preflop once he four-bets, but it's a min bet and if we say that AK, AA and KK is his range than AK is more than half of his range and i have position on him. by the time he bet 2 dollars i knew what he was up to but didn't know what to do about it because a missed AK is still in his range.

SECOND: more abstractly, how do i handle similar situations (e.g. i have a missed AQ and villain bets .40 at a $2 pot on every street)

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($6.76)
MP ($2.16)
CO ($4)
Button ($9.85)
SB ($13.14)
Hero (BB) ($10.51)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 10, 10
1 fold, MP checks, CO checks, Button calls $0.10, SB bets $0.65, Hero raises to $2.30, 3 folds, SB raises to $4.77, Hero calls $2.47

Flop: ($9.84) 2, 5, 5 (2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero calls $2

Turn: ($13.84) 6 (2 players)
SB bets $3.60

Total pot: $13.84
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Blazing_Saddler
Old 04-15-2009, 06:20 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I'm not to familiar with pot limit. In no Limit though, I am folding this pre flop. I don't think there is enough money left behind to call just for set value. So if you don't like a flop like that, then you really shouldn't have saw a flop in the first place.
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-15-2009, 08:01 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 why did you 3-bet preflop
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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surviva316
Old 04-15-2009, 08:10 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 i 3bet in 6max if i have more than half their range beat, which almost always includes TT. in this case because he's the small blind with limpers i guess his range is much better than i gave it credit, plus i'm in position so i guess i can afford to call a Cbet if i have an overpair and try and outplay him from there?

why, what are your thoughts?
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OP
Old 04-15-2009, 08:44 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
why did you flat a 4bet preflop for 1/2 your stack
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-15-2009, 08:44 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 what's your 3-bet%

I think you're right about his range being better than what you credited it to be. I'd imagine he's fairly tight here given he's raising from the sb.

I like calling because it keeps in the bottom part of his range too which you can hope to get value from postflop. Plus you have position. I guess I just don't see a reason to bloat the pot here with TT. Getting 4-bet sucks ass, though it let's us know we're definately beat. (How's your table image) This guy is a tight player, though I'd rather be 3-betting something like ATs here instead.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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surviva316
Old 04-15-2009, 08:57 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 of all moves in this hand, i didn't think the three bet would be the focus lol. thanks macro, that's very helpful. does this mean i'm flatting JJ here also?
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-15-2009, 08:59 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
why did you flat a 4bet preflop for 1/2 your stack
yeah and that lol
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Micro2Macro
Old 04-15-2009, 09:05 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
of all moves in this hand, i didn't think the three bet would be the focus lol. thanks macro, that's very helpful. does this mean i'm flatting JJ here also?
i usually just start from the bottom up when looking at a poker problem, so I basically ignored everything beyond the 3-bet.

However, 3-betting here might not be all that bad, so if you decide 3-betting is the best play, then you need to fold to a 4-bet from this type of player.

I dunno I guess it depends on alot of things really. I'll probably flat JJ 'x' % of the time and 3-bet 'x' percent of the time just based on how the game has played out so far and the dynamics of things. It depends how the villain plays postflop too. Like if he's willing to stack off with a mid pair postflop ina 3-bet pot, I wanna get it all in with JJ early. If he's really tight, I might just flat call and let him continue with the initiative postflop because we have position and will likely figure out where we stand based on how far he will go oop postflop, but we need to remember the button is still left to act, so I'd probably 3-bet in this case. But once again, it all depends.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Old 04-15-2009, 09:07 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
of all moves in this hand, i didn't think the three bet would be the focus lol. thanks macro, that's very helpful. does this mean i'm flatting JJ here also?
it reflects the lack of thought

if you 3b TT you're making them fold hands like 88, 99, A9
so what are you going up against when you 3b?

since you're IP vs. the original raiser I'd guess TT+, AQ+,AJs+
why would you want to play against that range when you can play against his entire opening range?

so maybe your 3b is EV+, but calling may be even more EV+ since you're IP and have a good hand but a hand you're not willing to stick in PF
the rule of thumb is 3b hands for value that you want to go all in with preflop, call with weaker hands and 3b as a bluff with hands you don't want to call with
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surviva316
Old 04-15-2009, 09:14 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 very helpful iop, thanks. you're right; the play WAS actually the result of a very common type of thoughtlessness--that is being a chart-reading poker pansy who misapplied some vague poker advice i heard somewhere
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amir is cool
Old 04-15-2009, 10:40 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I wouldn't have 3betted pf, usually with pp up till jacks I like keep the pot small preflop and then once you see where I am in the hand and whether I make my set i'll make my play.

judging from the bet he made post-flop, this guy looks like hes on a jacks or queens and he doesnt want to get outdrawn
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