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jackvance
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05-01-2006, 02:42 AM
Post subject: teaming (controversy)
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I ran into some poker friends at the bar just now, and they seem to have heard about my poker progress and suggested teaming up. So play at the same table (on different IPs) and share the profit. Maybe a bad thing to ask b/c it'll constitute cheating (or not?) but is this really profitable?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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it is profitable against unsuspecting players
it is cheating
if they do it, you should cut their balls off or something
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
it is profitable against unsuspecting players
it is cheating
if they do it, you should cut their balls off or something
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I just wondered, them being seasoned players and all, why they would suggest such a thing, since I don't see the immediate benefit.
Btw is it cheating without telling the cards? (unless they intend to blow money hanging on the phone with me for hours, I don't see how that would be accomplished) Simply sitting at the same table with people you know?..
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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its cheating even w/o telling the cards
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
its cheating even w/o telling the cards
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I'm not gonna do it obviously, if at all for sheer BR issues (they play some stakes above my capability, so it would be folly) but I'm just curious why it's cheating to simply play with people you know. I mean, I've seen people talk in manners that left no doubt they were friends, but never thought too much of it..
(clearest example coming to mind would be an SnG where two guys were discussing in the chat where they needed to end to run a profit inbetween the both of them - ironically both em were the first ones out)
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
its cheating even w/o telling the cards
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I'm not gonna do it obviously, if at all for sheer BR issues (they play some stakes above my capability, so it would be folly) but I'm just curious why it's cheating to simply play with people you know. I mean, I've seen people talk in manners that left no doubt they were friends, but never thought too much of it..
(clearest example coming to mind would be an SnG where two guys were discussing in the chat where they needed to end to run a profit inbetween the both of them - ironically both em were the first ones out) |
If people agree to split the profit from their playing at the same table, it will inevitably lead to questionable practices - don't kid yourself.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
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True but is there a rule to pin against this? I mean, these guys I mentionned advocated their practice in the chat - it ended up getting the whole table turn on them, but you can't really report them on anything or can you?
Cuz, if this really is somehow profitable (which I kinda doubt, but not sure), who knows how many are doing this..
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Probably my imagination running wild here, but if you can't tell if people are "teaming" this way - it would seem rather inconvenient to check the money transfers inbetween any two people playing at the same table - then eh.. is this something to look out for/worry about? Or am I just seeing things?
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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if you think people at your table are teaming up then get out.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Thing is, I never thought of this possibility before, much less looked out for it until I heard about it earlier today. But it's probably no great matter.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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KY_Ace
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 259
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There's a name for this, "Collusion". I'm sure it says somwhere in the user agreement that you must play only in your own intrest, just like it says on the sign in every poker room.
I would warn your friends that poker sites can and will check folded hands if anybody e-mails them with a complaint. I know of 1 person who is banned from party poker for life for that reason, and the money in their account was forfeited. I won't go into details about how they were caught or how they were doing it because I don't want to educate anyone who still wants to try this.
In a SnG or a limit game collusion can give 2 or more players a very unfair advantage, and would be profitable for them in the short term. In the long term these players would be banned from every poker network out there and have large portions of their bankroll seized at inconvenient times.
Consider the amount of time spent comminicating. Why not use that time to play on more tables? I can't imagine colluding on more than 4 tables at once. Collusion would increase your short term profits but I don't think they would double. You would be better off 8 tabling and playing straight up than 4 tabling and colluding. Unless you don't have the skill to beat the game straight up.
The low limit players can be beat without colluding and would probably have no clue if they were being cheated. The high limit players can spot possible collusion and would have your play investigated so fast it would make your head spin.
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KY_Ace
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 259
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Thing is, I never thought of this possibility before, much less looked out for it until I heard about it earlier today. But it's probably no great matter.
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I know for a fact that this does go on online and in B&M rooms, particularly at the higher limits, even at the highest limits. If you see this happening, don't get fancy and try to trap them in a hand, don't even alert them to the fact that you are aware. Just play super tight and quietly record the suspect hand #s and e-mail support, you'll be doing us all a favor.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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The high limit players can spot possible collusion and would have your play investigated so fast it would make your head spin.
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So it's not too uncommon a thing to happen?!
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Consider the amount of time spent comminicating. Why not use that time to play on more tables? I can't imagine colluding on more than 4 tables at once. Collusion would increase your short term profits but I don't think they would double. You would be better off 8 tabling and playing straight up than 4 tabling and colluding. Unless you don't have the skill to beat the game straight up.
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I have to agree here.. I don't see any long term benefit. "Maybe" play a bit more profitable on one table as opposed to playing more tables at once, lol..
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
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jack, collusion means sharing cards to make more money, as described above. there is nothing wrong with sitting at the same table as your friends so long as you're not colluding.
nothing wrong with sharing profit either. I actually think rilla a while ago was going to set up something like this as a way to lower variance, though it was just pooling money among the higher stakes players, not that they would play at the same table.
however, as was already said, this is moving toward the ballpark of questionable practices, and is probably better to just not get involved in, but it in itself is not questionable.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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KY_Ace
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 259
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
So it's not too uncommon a thing to happen?!
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There are different things that these guys do, here's a list of things to watch for:
1) 1 player in a tournament constantly losing chips to his friend with a short stack to keep him alive and in the money.
2) 2 players at a limit table capping the betting on every round, 1 of them with the nuts and the other convieniently dropping out of the hand so you can't see he was raising with no pair and no draw.
3) one player raising another player on the river in a limit game, forcing all the other players to call a double raise on the river. The first better will fold because neither one of them has a strong hand, and they don't want you to see their cards. It is just a power play to steal the pot.
If you record the hand #s and e-mail support, they can look into these hands and see if the suspect player folded an inappropriate hand.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
jack, collusion means sharing cards to make more money, as described above. there is nothing wrong with sitting at the same table as your friends so long as you're not colluding.
nothing wrong with sharing profit either. I actually think rilla a while ago was going to set up something like this as a way to lower variance, though it was just pooling money among the higher stakes players, not that they would play at the same table.
however, as was already said, this is moving toward the ballpark of questionable practices, and is probably better to just not get involved in, but it in itself is not questionable.
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Alright thx for the clarification.
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SuperDave9x19
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delaware USA
Posts: 114
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
I just wondered, them being seasoned players and all, why they would suggest such a thing, since I don't see the immediate benefit.
Btw is it cheating without telling the cards? (unless they intend to blow money hanging on the phone with me for hours, I don't see how that would be accomplished) Simply sitting at the same table with people you know?..
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I think it is cheating whether you talk or not.
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Been playing money poker for 34 years and decided in 2002 to try that TX Holdem game on TV. Then found Pokerstars in Summer 2005. Still not an overall winner but i am on a good trend and nearly there.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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I have got to think that just sharing the profits from the same table is “colluding” and cheating. But maybe I am wrong.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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Greedo017
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Full House
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what is cheating about sitting at the same table as your friend? ftr people play together all the time. its all about whether you are treating them differently. It is fine to play with friends so long as you don't collude.
pooling profits is also fine, it just lowers individual variance.
but, if you don't collude, there is no advantage to sitting at the same table, unless you just find it more entertaining or something.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
pooling profits is also fine, it just lowers individual variance.
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Sharing profits means you have one less opponent at your table. And you have two ways to win the hand, you or your "friend" can win the hand. That is an unfair advantage over anyone else at the table not in your clique.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EricE
Sharing profits means you have one less opponent at your table. And you have two ways to win the hand, you or your "friend" can win the hand. That is an unfair advantage over anyone else at the table not in your clique.
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it is unfair that two people have twice the chance to win and each get half the profit? that doesn't make any sense. remember, i said they're not colluding. how is anyone else at a disadvantage?
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EricE
Sharing profits means you have one less opponent at your table. And you have two ways to win the hand, you or your "friend" can win the hand. That is an unfair advantage over anyone else at the table not in your clique.
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it is unfair that two people have twice the chance to win and split the profit? that doesn't make any sense. remember, i said they're not colluding. how is anyone else at a disadvantage? |
Because you're not going to try to stack each other. It's a slippery slope. It's in your interest to keep your buddy at the table, so you won't get involved in each other's hands at first, then you'll start dumping chips to each other, then before you know it you're telling each other what you have over the phone...where does the fun end and the collusion (aka cheating) begin? It's just not worth having your account closed and your bankroll confiscated. Just don't go there.
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Greedo017
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Full House
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you're right, it is easy to start colluding, and i'd recommend avoiding this whole situation. i wasn't gonna even say any more about it, people just kept responding to me with you can't sit at the same table when that's not true. being at the same table/sharing money is irrelevant, its colluding that matters.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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KY_Ace
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 259
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There is noting wrong with playing at the same table as your friend, in B&M room you'll rarely see a table with 10 strangers, people gamble in groups, that's normal. I started playing in Toronto, alot of asians played at the Toronto casinos, and my white ass was a minority ( no offence intended ). I often found myself at tables where 6 players were soft playing each other and playing aggressively against me. This was unethical but not really enforceable, it's a bit of a grey area, it was just something that I had to overcome. Pooling $$ or not trying to get involved in pots with your friends is unethical IMO but you won't have your accounts closed. The things that you will get into serious trouble over is communicating and raising hands that you have no business being involved in, or dumping chips, either in a tournament or at a private table just to move money, dumping at private tables will get your account closed quick.
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
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I'd pass.I don't like playing too much with friends because they end up learning too much about your strenghes and weaknesses as well.
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mamajo
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 18
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What if I was playing a SNG or MTT and it was down to 3 players..
Me - 70% chips
Friend - 5% chips
Weak/Tighty - 25% chips
I've been stealing the blinds from weak/tighty the last 25 hands, he is just waiting for my friend to get knocked out to move up in the payouts.
Friend moves all-in , and I am getting 20:1 pot odds, I FOLD.
Unethical, collusion, stupidity, brilliant... ?
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mamajo
What if I was playing a SNG or MTT and it was down to 3 players..
Me - 70% chips
Friend - 5% chips
Weak/Tighty - 25% chips
I've been stealing the blinds from weak/tighty the last 25 hands, he is just waiting for my friend to get knocked out to move up in the payouts.
Friend moves all-in , and I am getting 20:1 pot odds, I FOLD.
Unethical, collusion, stupidity, brilliant... ?
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Borderline collusion. Weak/tighty gets pissed and writes an e-mail to support reporting suspicious behaviour. Worst-case scenario: If it's Stars and, given recent events, Party, they'll pull the hand histories and look for a pattern. If they find one, then they'll start looking at other HH. They'll also look at the chat to see if there's any evidence you know each other. If they find you play at the same tables a lot and the same sort of thing has gone on before, they are within their rights to seize your winnings, close your accounts and put weak/tighty in ftw. Best case scenario: You're red-flagged. Like I said, just don't go there. It isn't worth it.
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Greedo017
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Full House
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"I've been stealing the blinds from weak/tighty the last 25 hands, he is just waiting for my friend to get knocked out to move up in the payouts.
Friend moves all-in , and I am getting 20:1 pot odds, I FOLD."
well, if you folded because he was your friend, it is collusion. but is this really such a bad fold to a stranger?
and, softplaying is collusion.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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mamajo
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 18
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Quote:
well, if you folded because he was your friend, it is collusion. but is this really such a bad fold to a stranger?
and, softplaying is collusion.
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If I know Mr. Weak/Tight will continue to fold until my friend gets knocked out, folding is +EV no matter what pot odds dictate.
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flyingPenguin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 193
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I worked for an online poker company for a while, and all sorts of things happen, and people do get busted. If someone emails in a complaint about collusion it will be investigated.
Other things that happen often are chip dumping and credit card fraud. The poker companies lose a huge amount of money each month to this, so they love to crack down it.
When it comes to collusion though it doesn't hurt the company much, so it takes our complaints for them to do anything about it.
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underminedsk
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reraising you from the button
Posts: 250
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collusion in ring seems poinless.
collusion in SNGs seems useful.
collusion in MTTS seems rediculously profitable.
IMHO...
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online br: $14,000, @400NL full ring, 100NL 6 max
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strawman
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 207
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by underminedsk
collusion in ring seems poinless.
collusion in SNGs seems useful.
collusion in MTTS seems rediculously profitable.
IMHO...
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Poker Room recently had a backlash about individuals with multiple accounts playing against/with themselves in MTT's and the ridiculous advantage they had. Users could have an account on each skin and enter them all into the same tournament. They didn't seem to do much about it until one paticular player started a campaign and signed up a number of players who agreed to pull their bankrolls if nothing was done about it.
In a full ring game (maybe even short handed) I think you could easily end up hanging yourself through collusion. Obviously it would be helpful to know if some of your outs aren't in the deck, but knowing what your partner has doesn't necessarily define what your opponents' needs are in a given hand. What if both of you are dealt a similar hand? Who gets to play AK and who sits out? Do you play a premium hand knowing some of your outs are gone or do you both fold? What happens if you both get sucked out on a hand? What bad habits will you instill that will effect your play when your partner isn't around?
The only advantage I can see in collusion isn't winning bets, but saving bets. I'd like to believe that a student of the game can minimize this gap through working on their game. You can take yourself to almost any table in the world and play a game but you can't always take your partner. If people want to partner there is always bridge.
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salsa4ever
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Melbourne
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by flyingPenguin
I worked for an online poker company for a while, and all sorts of things happen, and people do get busted. If someone emails in a complaint about collusion it will be investigated.
Other things that happen often are chip dumping and credit card fraud. The poker companies lose a huge amount of money each month to this, so they love to crack down it.
When it comes to collusion though it doesn't hurt the company much, so it takes our complaints for them to do anything about it.
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what is chip dumping? how does it cause poker companies to lose money?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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strawman
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 207
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
what is chip dumping? how does it cause poker companies to lose money?
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Sounds something like money laundering. Use a stolen card, create a fradulent account, and then dump the chips off to your legitimate account or to friends.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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From onlinepokercenter.com:
Should I be worried about player collusion?
Collusion occurs in both online and real life games. Fortunately it is much easier to detect online collusion. Online poker rooms analyze each hand history with sophisticated algorithms to detect suspicious betting patterns and player interactions. Moreover, online poker rooms also monitor IP address to ensure people from the same location do not play at the same table.
Many of the classic poker cheats used in live games do not work well online. A good example is “chip dumping”—the practice where one player intentionally loses his chips to his partner during a tournament. In a live game, chip dumping is impossible to detect once the loser mucks his hand. By the time you complain to the pit boss, the dealer has already shuffled the cards, erasing all evidence of the chip dump.
It is a different story online. Every single hand, even the mucked hands, are recorded and analyzed by security algorithms. If two players have a pattern of making ridiculously bad bets against each other during tournament play, the computer will detect it.
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piratepeaty
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 121
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
True but is there a rule to pin against this? I mean, these guys I mentionned advocated their practice in the chat - it ended up getting the whole table turn on them, but you can't really report them on anything or can you?
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Yes. If the site finds out, they will confiscate their bankroll. Read the terms and conditions.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mamajo
What if I was playing a SNG or MTT and it was down to 3 players..
Me - 70% chips
Friend - 5% chips
Weak/Tighty - 25% chips
I've been stealing the blinds from weak/tighty the last 25 hands, he is just waiting for my friend to get knocked out to move up in the payouts.
Friend moves all-in , and I am getting 20:1 pot odds, I FOLD.
Unethical, collusion, stupidity, brilliant... ?
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You are keeping the bubble alive so you can take advantage of the weak tight player, good play.
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