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wellrounded08
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08-31-2008, 03:49 PM
Post subject: "Tallstacking"
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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If I've been at a table a while and I'm holding between 200-300xBB, How should my play differ? In all area's what should change?
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Cardsharp
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17
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play more SCs vs other big stacks, also watch out more for possible straights and flushes vs other big stacks.
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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The general rule is that the deeper you are the more that speculative implied odds type hands increase in value, and the more big premium pairs decrease in value when they don't hit sets. Reason being when you're 250bb+ deep it really really behooves you to avoid committing more than 40-50bb on early streets in what are likely very bad reverse implied odds situations.
So the deeper you are, the more important it is to be playing hands that you're rarely ever going to be happy about committing post flop unless you hit hard.
The reason why big pairs play so crappy when you're absurdly (300bb+) deep is that there are tons of situations where you're seemingly very happy to have a one pair overpair type hand, but in reality these situations are actually quite bad because we can end up playing huge pots with one pair. And that's extraordinarily bad.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Your stack is only as big as the biggest stack you're in the hand with that is smaller than yours btw.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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Yeah, to clarify based on spoons post, my post refers to situations where the efffective stacks are 250bb+ deep.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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a while back fnord posted a link to the best article i've seen on this. I'll see if i can find it sometime.
Basically it boils down to position and implied odds.
also, you're not deep unless someone else is. Don't alter your play against the 100bb stacks
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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btw... there's no shame in rat-holing online...
if you're not comfortable playing your A-game... being aggressive, leveraging your stack, etc... then take your money, put it in your roll and fire up another table...
Things like playing TPTK or big over pair, stacking off pre-flop, or even b!tch variance sh!t like set-over-set, can f-ck your gambool ultra-deep.
Me... I like to keep my moniez... but I got no big stack balls! 
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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if you are playing microstakes, i wouldnt change much no matter how deep i played. just dont stack off lightly with other 200 bb stacks.
personally, i may start to bump my pfr a bit to 5X or so and force them to play more expensive hands if they would like. has a funny way of really narrowing a range against nitty micro players.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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yeah, my question is about
A)when Effective stacks are 250xBB+
B)When I'm the bigstack, like Chopper said, can I bump my raises w/ big hands up a bit?
When I'm the only bigstack, I'll do just like sar said probably though.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wellrounded08
When I'm the only bigstack, I'll do just like sar said probably though.
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Actually bro, I'd flip the scrip on that... 'cause as you know, the effective stack is only as big as what everyone else at the table has. So if you got 300bb, but nobody else has over 100, ain't nothin' changed.
My two other issues about playing extra deep is variance and post-flop. Let's say you normally getting it all-in w/ KK pre-flop. Normally, you a favorite over most ranges and you win lets say 57% of the time vs a QQ-AA, AKo, AKs range. Consistently stacking off 100bb (buy-in size) is going to earn you a profit, 'cause the 43 times you lose 100bb, you'll pick make it on the 57 times you win.
If you ocassionally throw in some 200 or 300bb deepstack sh!t your f-in with the long-term profitability. Granted, the odds are the same on the hand taken in isolation, but your mistakes are amplified... you misread the dude's deep stack-off range and it ends up being AA only, you just took a 3-buyin hit.
In addition, the whole deepstack SPR sh!t gets very different. To Chopper's point, big pairs go down in value deepstacked and drawing hands (suited connecters, pockets played for sets, etc) go up because of the heavy weighting towards implieds. Deep-stack heavily favors the better post-flop player, 'cause you're going to need to make the right decisions through all 3-streets, and any weak-tight or spewy tendencies going to be easier to exploit.
Keep in mind... this is king-mutha-f-in nit talking... but that's how sh!t looks from my side of the woods fwiw.
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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First off, I completely respect king-mutha-f-in nit's opinion. But I completely MIS-REMEMBERED your post whe I was typing mine. So bad, I won't even repeat.
So Plz. Let me repost my last post, not Edit, Repost to Clarify.
Ok, when dealing w/ Several Deep stacks(IE:300xBB), I will then do what Sar said. At least for now, until my postflop play is better, however long that takes. If I'm the only Bigstack, for now I'll just play the same as I would w/ 100xBB.
FWIW: I'm feeling good cuz I just won a big hand against another big stack at the end of my session. me and another big stack had 200xBB, I Had Pocket 44's. other big stack raised, shortstack called I called. Flop comes 34Q. Shortstack shoves, I CALL. Bigstack shoves behind me(Like I though he would, or at least raise big). I call obviously.
Results:
Shorstack:QTs or some crap.
Other big stack: KK.
Rounded :444
Rounded takes down a big pot.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wellrounded08
FWIW: I'm feeling good cuz I just won a big hand against another big stack at the end of my session. me and another big stack had 200xBB, I Had Pocket 44's. other big stack raised, shortstack called I called. Flop comes 34Q. Shortstack shoves, I CALL. Bigstack shoves behind me(Like I though he would, or at least raise big). I call obviously.
Results:
Shorstack:QTs or some crap.
Other big stack: KK.
Rounded :444
Rounded takes down a big pot.
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Nh bro  Now ask yourself if you would have called that same flop with the given betting action if you had the KK. I'd like to say I'd make the big laydown everytime... but sh!!!!t... who'm I kidding?!?
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Fold hands with bad reverse implied odds, play hands with good implied odds. The only good action with a strong overpair is getting called on all three streets by op.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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fat-b
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 117
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switch to sngs. then you only have 15bbs and its all much easier
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