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ensign_lee
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03-18-2005, 05:21 AM
Post subject: Suited Connectors
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The University of TEXAS at Austin
Posts: 2,237
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I was rolling it over in my mind, and well...the question came up...
Are suited connectors FUNDAMENTALLY unprofitable?
Now, before y'all jump on me....hear me out. 
I'm talking about $100NL and $200NL tables on party by the way, mayeb $400 NL sometimes.
But...at these levels, the fish are starting to thin out, or...at least, the fish are a little bit smarter. Even the ones that love to chase themselves will bet to DESTROY your drawing odds to a flush, which may inadvertently destroy your drawing odds to a straight as well.
So...that leaves the only time that you are capable of drawing up to your OESFDs; however, these don't pop up often enough to overcome your losses from merely SEEING the flop to then have to decide to fold because the odds aren't in your favor.
I don't know about y'all, but the only times I've been able to be paid big for flushes are when I've chased purely on implied odds. But just thinking about it, the other guy won't be super crazy ALL of the time, so even when you chase and hit, it's a long run negative expected value.
So then, the question that I posed came into my mind? Y'all's thoughts?
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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it sounds like you over value them. I'd say if someone raises the bb 4x, and you get like 4-5 callers, call, but heads up, this is not the kind of hand you want.
i'd say these are more of a limit hand, than NL, doesn't mean you shouldn't play them, but just be smart about when you get into a pot with one.
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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suited conncetors are junk unless you can raise with them and rep the flop. Sometimes you get lucky as hell and an ace come but give you 2 pair or bettter and get payed off like a liitle whore.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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They might be more profitable than AK for some people.
The had has deception and potential if you play it right.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Legendash
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Full House
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Crypto 6max 100NL
Posts: 611
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So how does one play them right, i've found drawing hard at party $25 due to the party player's natural reflex to bet $2-3 if they are the last bettor regardless of their cards, i hardly ever have pot odds.
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"[This theory] is only useful for helping to calculate your luck odds. If you have a good read that you have a numerical advantage against your opponent, that your hand is "luckier"..."
Copyright, Youngdro 2007.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Legend, one key is to play them in late position, so that it's less likely someone's going to bet behind you just for the hell of it. If it's as bad as you say, maybe only play them on the button.
Another option to mix in occasionally is raising with your draw. Can cause passive players to check when they might have raised bigger, can buy you the pot, or it can buy you a free card sometimes.
- Jeffrey
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Absolutely right. If they keep destroying your drawing odds with overbets, then you have to ask yourself how they know your drawing. Also, connectors are good for flushes and straights, so sometimes you'll have odds to chase anyway in a multi out situation.
The bottom line is there are going to be times your drawing when others in the hand didn't hit the flop strong enough to screw with your odds. You'll be able to draw sometimes I'm sure.
It's few and far between anyway. I barely ever play suited connectors. You gotta be in late position with a lot of limpers.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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I won't play suited connectors lower than TJ. They just don't seem profitable to me. Perhaps I should get pokertracker to find out for sure.
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BL Mike
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I use suited connectors to help mix up my play. In late position with a bunch of limpers, I raise with 89s. I'll then make a continuation bet after almost any flop and show the hand if it's folded to me. When I do hit a flop like one I hit a couple weeks ago when the flop came 567 rainbow -- it's impossible to put me on 89 given my previous tight play and pre-flop raise. In this particular situation, I ended up with all the chips of another player (who had indeed been paying attention with a set of 5's -- he put me on a medium to big pocket pair (just as I'd hoped). This ended up being a $650 pot in a $300 NL game. I've had a couple of similar situations in the past as well, but it doesn't take too many of these to prove to me that they are extremely profitable -- and easy to let go off if you miss.
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poskid_1982
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 392
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The suited connector theory works great for two reasons.
1) Not many players read them as a possibility. (especially if you raise preflop)
2) The out possibilties are huge. If you catch a piece and a draw you can semi-bluff to draw your way to a winning hand.
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I almost never play suited connectors for value (that is, check-call and chase a flush or straight). I basically just semi-bluff with them from late position.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ghlight=suited
5% of the time you'll flop a made hand (2 pair or better) with suited connectors. If you expect to be able to make 20x the amount you pay to play when you hit, definitely play them. Often this means limping from late position, especially into a multiway pot. If there are 6 people limping in front of you, it becomes fairly easy to make that 20x or more. The hand's well enough disguised that you'll likely get called for a lot more than 20x.
As far as the times you'll flop only a draw (much more frequent), that play is left to you. Obviously you want to pay attention to the various odds and your reads on the table and such...
- Jeffrey
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7816&highlight=suited
5% of the time you'll flop a made hand (2 pair or better) with suited connectors. If you expect to be able to make 20x the amount you pay to play when you hit, definitely play them. Often this means limping from late position, especially into a multiway pot. If there are 6 people limping in front of you, it becomes fairly easy to make that 20x or more. The hand's well enough disguised that you'll likely get called for a lot more than 20x.
As far as the times you'll flop only a draw (much more frequent), that play is left to you. Obviously you want to pay attention to the various odds and your reads on the table and such...
- Jeffrey
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Don't forget that you will also lose some very big pots with suited connectors to higher flushes and straights.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Poker Tracker stats:
Over 11,000 hands, I've had suited connectors 434 times. I've netted $58 with them, playing mostly at .10/.25 (NL$25).
I'd argue that I was actually too loose with them over that stretch - calling preflop when I was in early/mid position and didn't yet know if I was going to have a multiway pot or if I'd have to fold to a raise. Obviously the net would be moderately higher (I'm guessing + $1 to $5) if I hadn't made this mistake and cost myself the price of the blinds.
BTW, if you neglect 23s and 34s, that net goes up $25, as I've actually lost that much playing these two hands.
- Jeffrey
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twosevoff
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 526
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Through 35k hands in PT, I'm at +$498 for suited connectors and one gappers 87s-54s (765 times, 83.14% VPIP, 31.37 win%, .54 bb/hand). I will virtually never lay these hands down except in very early position (and sometimes not even then), and I frequently raise and generally call standard raises with them in position (in a ring game I like to have a multiway pot or position to call a raise with them tho). A large part of the value of playing these hands is the deception and unpredictability you add to your play. As for the question, I would say that, if played correctly, suited connectors are fundamentally marginally profitable.
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whileone
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 306
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I've only got 4k hands and that's at .10/.25 party NL. 54s - T9s has won me $49.90
i don't think i would have looked this up without this thread. i seem to have problems with the bigger cards... anyway,
The little cards didn't make as many straights and flushes as i expected. there are quite a few 2 pair, trips, and nothing. So, i suspect that their value comes from versitilty. if you can see a cheap flop, you have a *lot* of ways to make a hand, they're easy to fold if you miss.
things may be different up at the $100 limit tho.
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