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ajs4385

08-20-2008, 06:47 PM Post subject: Suited Connectors

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 19

I just dont get why lots of good players rate them so much.
I have been playing poker just under two years, in that time I have made over 10k so i am no donk, but I have never got why these hands are so good. Could someone enlighten me, heres my view on them.
(I am a cash player usually 50 or 100NL)

From what i can see you play these to either flop a draw or hit 2 pair/trips

Problems with hitting two pair:
1)If the board pairs it counterfits your hand or against top pair opp could quite easily hit his other card and again your screwed ,
2)Possible straights are there as you have connecting cards so you dont get paid by top pair as opp scared of straight or worse opp has straight.
Either way you win a small pot off top pair or lose a big pot to the straight.

Problems with hitting trips:
Trips are obvious even to fish so usually you will not get paid by top pair, So again you win small pot or lose a big one to opp with trips better good kicker or House.

Problem with flopping a draw:
So you have flopped a draw, you have exactly nothing. Most of the time you will not get odds to call, so you decide semi bluff, so your now commiting a decent amount of chips when your not the favourite usually 2 to 1 against. Not profitable.
So if you are lucky enough to hit your draw by getting priced in somehow, a flush doesnt get paid as like trips these are obvious even to fishes. So you hit a straight not as obvious, problem is there always seems to be a poss flush or board has paired, so you opp with 1 pair or hopefully two will not pay you as scared of possible hands out there , again you win a small pot or lose a big one.

Thanks for reading please let me know your thoughts

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d0zer

08-20-2008, 06:51 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Yeah they suck

I generally only play them with real good implied odds, massive multi-ways where I'm near to closing the action, or if I've got position on someone I feel I can outplay postflop.

I feel they're roughly 1/3rd as good as low pocket pairs.

BankItDrew

08-20-2008, 07:19 PM

#3 (permalink)

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BankItDrew will become famous soon enough

dozer is spot on.

- they are not nearly as good as a small pp
- only good with position vs a player you can outplay, or
- multi-way cheap pots with high implied odds

I can tell I'm not playing very good poker when I notice I'm beginning to raise with sc's preflop.

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Fnord

08-20-2008, 07:37 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Some of my most profitable hands. You're doing it wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

cardsman1992

08-20-2008, 07:39 PM

#5 (permalink)

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If you only play pairs and high cards, you won't get nearly the action.

You can play SCs to make moolah, but you also do it for balance.

Operation Grind For Education:

Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!!
End date: 31aug2009
Current stakes: $100/200NL FR

ajs4385

08-20-2008, 07:45 PM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Some of my most profitable hands. You're doing it wrong.

I already figured out I am doing it wrong, as better players like yourself say how good they are but I just dont get why. Can you please explain why they are so good and how they should be played.

d0zer

08-20-2008, 07:52 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Some of my most profitable hands. You're doing it wrong.

Stop making us feel bad for being bad nuthunting poker players, you dick

cardsman1992

08-20-2008, 08:01 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Fnord just wants OP to think further. OP is already on the right track. Poker isn't a game where you can just give someone the answers......

That being said, Drew has it right too. I like them in position, and for the same reasons, but I am not afraid to open with them UTG once in a while for metagame.

Much like the debate regarding limp vs raise on small PPs in early position, you don't necessarily play SCs to make money on every hand. You play them so that when you hit your set of 6s on a 67K twotone board, you get paid because "he's shoving his damn draw again".....

Operation Grind For Education:

Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!!
End date: 31aug2009
Current stakes: $100/200NL FR

Jack Sawyer

08-20-2008, 08:11 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Some of my most profitable hands. You're doing it wrong.

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yourfather

08-20-2008, 08:40 PM

#10 (permalink)

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I don't know nearly as much as the above posters but my 2 cents:

If you only play big cards and pps you would be pretty easy to figure out and thus be more exploitable, at least when playing observant opps.

It makes it tougher to put you on straightforward TAG ranges.

Also when you raise in lp and hit a strong hand its usually more disguised.

edit: what cardsman said basically

spoonitnow

08-20-2008, 08:50 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

dozer is spot on.

- they are not nearly as good as a small pp
- only good with position vs a player you can outplay, or
- multi-way cheap pots with high implied odds

I can tell I'm not playing very good poker when I notice I'm beginning to raise with sc's preflop.

wat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

badgers

08-20-2008, 09:14 PM

#12 (permalink)

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wow wtf drew?

3k post - Return of the blog!

BankItDrew

08-20-2008, 09:18 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

wat

I'll explain:

First of all, I recommend raising sc's when the conditions are right ie. reads, image, stacks, etc. Secondly, When I 'grind' out my bankroll, I am playing level 1 poker, playing only the cards. I have no reads when I 12 table, thus playing postflop in marginal situations is very difficult. I'm not playing my 'A' game when I am raising sc's from LP or any position for that matter because it also adds many hands that I need to play postflop while multi-tabling, which I find very difficult.

Take the JTs hand from the sb that was posted last week - I was on tilt. Raising with these cards is another form of my tilt and it usually leads to downswings.

Maybe before I critique hands or add to the strategy, I should first announce that I am going to play like a newb and only see the cards in front of me.

BankItDrew

08-20-2008, 09:20 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Are you people new to the way I play online?

d0zer

08-20-2008, 09:25 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Most bots aren't programmed to play SCs...

I raise them in position, & limp em' behind a buncha limpers, but I've never even looked at how profitable they are for me to be honest...I've got bigger leaks in my game that need fixing...

Fnord

08-20-2008, 09:34 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Are you people new to the way I play online?

I'll just add that I LOVE people who play like you at my tables. As I've gotten better it's gotten so easy to read ABC players and find spots where they just can't have a hand very often.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

BankItDrew

08-20-2008, 09:39 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Are you people new to the way I play online?

I'll just add that I LOVE people who play like you at my tables. As I've gotten better it's gotten so easy to read ABC players and find spots where they just can't have a hand very often.

Stop bothering me, I'm here for the VPP's.

Fnord

08-20-2008, 09:49 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Stop bothering me, I'm here for the VPP's.

You can have your VPP's. I just want your monies, one small pot at a time.

Also JTs is one of my most profitable hands on its own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Im_new

08-20-2008, 09:59 PM

#19 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2007

Posts: 1,055

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Hmmm....not exactly, I don't think. It seems that you guys are playing only to hit on the flop. You don't have to hit to win a hand. And passivity is hardly ever the best answer. When you're a Taggy player...anything is possible all over the place, especially at a cash table.

----Alright here is why SC's are the shit when played correctly:

A. Implied odds are SWEET when deep-stacked.

B. Play them aggressively from MP/LP (table dependent) at a tight or kinda tight table and reap the benefits. (Don't do this every time you see them though or your opps will open your range too much and start re-raising you more often.) This works best when you're pretty Taggy and comfortable c-betting lots of safe and semi-safe flops into 2 players at most. Don't be scarred to bet with air when there is one over-card and one other person in the pot. You may not be ahead, but you can get them to fold enough times to make it +EV.

C. Raising them gets you more action in the long run with your better hands.

D. When you do hit a good draw, its not soooo hard to stay in with a draw for cheap.

E. Keeps Opps off balance by checking flops on both ok and bad flops... always bet the good ones for hand protection if needed... especially when you're a typical all day c-bettor. They are looking to c-raise your bullshit....deny them the chance on a whim.

The key to playing SCs is the variety of shit you do with them preflop and on the flop. These are my fav hands to mix it up with when I get bored at the right kind of table. Pick a tight or average table when you decide to be aggro. At loose tables, only play in LP and play them only with good odds. At these tables play them passively preflop, then get aggro if you're in LP and its checked to you.... again, do this in moderation. If you don't, they will catch on and fuck you up for messing with them.

The No-no list:

---NO being a complete idiot and betting into 3+ players with a weak draw or air. Be smart about your shit. Wait until you hit on a later street. Call if you're getting good odds on the nut-draw. Or just throw it away.

---NO growing attached to SCs. Sure they're fun, out-going, hot, and attractive. But they are NOT MARRIAGE MATERIAL preflop; not on the flop without two pair/trips or better. SCs are like that wild chick from the party....she's an "ehh, why not today" type of hand.

These are the general possibilities when you play SCs well:

1. Win a bunch of small pots whether you hit or not... balance out your image to encourage players to go at you later when you have a hand.

2. Lose a few small pots that you prob raised PF and possibly cbet. (You're deep-stacked, no worries.)

3. Win BIG pots when you hit.

4. Loose VERY few big pots because you aren't married to TP and small draw type hands.

"Gotta run well eventually."

Im_new

08-20-2008, 10:02 PM

#20 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2007

Posts: 1,055

...and not to mention, it makes it THAT much harder for your opp to put you on an accurate range on those tricky boards which often leads to a mental edge and another pot for you later on.

"Gotta run well eventually."

Fnord

08-20-2008, 10:09 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Pretty much what he said, although they will lose big pots when you stick it all-in on a strong draw and/or very big pot you built with prior aggression. I stacked off twice with them this morning when I had the best of the money and didn't get there.

It's all about widening your ranges to make it harder to put you on a flop, contesting blinds and getting in a position to exploit post-flop mistakes.

When I look at a lot of my hands from my opponent's perspective and try put myself on a range on an early street, I just laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

reprisal

08-20-2008, 10:55 PM

#22 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2008

Posts: 106

Straight flush FTW

Fnord

08-21-2008, 11:19 AM

#23 (permalink)

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Nope, people are just really retarded.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($233.00)
UTG+1 ($239.25)
CO ($191.00)
BTN ($173.50)
Hero ($314.65)
BB ($244.95)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is SB

3 folds, BTN calls $2, Hero raises to $10, 1 fold, BTN calls $8

Flop:

($22, 2 players)
Hero bets $14, BTN raises to $28, Hero raises to $74, BTN goes all-in $163.50, Hero calls $89.50

Turn:

($349, 2 players)

River:

($349, 2 players)

Final Pot: $349
BTN shows:

Hero shows:

Hero wins $346 ( won +$172.50 )
BTN lost -$173.50

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
3 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero ($277.40)
SB ($178.05)
BB ($191.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 3 players) Hero is BTN

Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, BB calls $4

Flop:

($13, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $10, BB raises to $24, Hero calls $14

Turn:

($61, 2 players)
BB bets $36, Hero raises to $82, BB goes all-in $161, Hero calls $79

River:

($383, 2 players)

Final Pot: $383
Hero shows:

BB shows:

Hero wins $382 ( won +$191 )
BB lost -$191.00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

daven

08-21-2008, 11:40 AM

#24 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Stop bothering me, I'm here for the VPP's.

You can have your VPP's. I just want your monies, one small pot at a time.

Also JTs is one of my most profitable hands on its own.

interesting, i'm examining suited connectors and gappers at the moment. I've been overplaying suited gappers pre-flop, i want that $1000 back....

for what it's worth - here is JTs over a small sample (300 times since 15/07/2008) at 100nl
VPIP 51%
PFR 24%
Amount won -$6
W$WSF 38%
WTSD 17.78%
W$SD 68.75%

littleogre

08-21-2008, 10:21 PM

#25 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past

i'm no sc expert but they are +ev for me. The biggest mistake i see people makeing is flat calling raises with bad implied odds.

mxiu

08-22-2008, 04:10 PM

#26 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 982

pump for value imo

Fnord

08-24-2008, 11:15 PM

#27 (permalink)

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

littleogre

08-25-2008, 12:11 PM

#28 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

fnord any tips on playing 1 gap suited hands ? Keep in mind i play micro stakes. Currently i only play them on the button and 1 off the button. If i'm first in i'll raise. Or if atleast 34people call before me i'll limp. If it is raised i use the rule of 40xbb.

08-26-2008, 10:41 PM

#29 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

I may sound nuts here but SCs are quite profitable for me. I like to play them from the CO/BTN/blinds. Sometimes I limp along, sometimes I raise it up... just depends on who's already in the pot. And when you play them in position, you have the option to take a free card. SCs are exactly the type of hands where I can build a nice pot or easily duck out on the flop. This is all common knowledge though...

I think the problem that most players have with SCs is that they play for the straight or flush pre-flop, but end up flopping a pair and get themselves in trouble on 4th/5th street.

Muzzard

08-26-2008, 10:46 PM

#30 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Cheshire, UK

Posts: 1,843

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Are you people new to the way I play online?

I'll just add that I LOVE people who play like you at my tables. As I've gotten better it's gotten so easy to read ABC players and find spots where they just can't have a hand very often.

Stop bothering me, I'm here for the VPP's.

BankItDrew

08-26-2008, 10:53 PM

#31 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: Losing Prop Bets

Posts: 2,789

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to post it.

GG

Muzzard

08-26-2008, 10:58 PM

#32 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Cheshire, UK

Posts: 1,843

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to post it.

GG

First time I seen this thread, bit slow...but we got there!

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