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RML604
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12-18-2008, 01:39 AM
Post subject: Strongish hand, in the BB, a bunch of limpers
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 166
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I just found myself with AJo in the BB, full ring, with about 5 limpers. I thought about raising, but AJo seems like too weak of a hand, especially when I'll be first or second to act.
On the other hand, checking it seems like I'm giving up on a decent hand unless I hit the flop hard.
It feels like an in between spot, and I was just wondering what other people think about it.
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HarleyGuy13
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,226
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I'm going to either fold or raise 9.5xbb, but probably fold myself. I would be thinking there would have to be somebody out of the group who has AQ+! So if an A does come and I lead out then am faced with a reraise WTF then? Just my donk thoughts. Can't wait to see what the regs say.
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"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it  |
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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im either playing it really slowly or really fast depending on the table. if the limpers have high vpip's then im raising this up to 8x or so cuz of the limpers. Ill take it down a large percentage of the time, and loose passives love folding to cbets. Also, AQ isnt too likely, more often what we'll see here are weak suited cards, and Ax. Id just be wary if someone that doesnt like to raise and doesnt like to limp is in the pot.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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grindinginnj
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Grinding In New Jersey!!
Posts: 143
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I agree with JKDs
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Stackin chips and rippin lips!!
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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with a bunch of limpers I would definitely raise pre-flop here to limit the field.
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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raise. dead money is yummy
and pick good boards to cbet on
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Raise vs halfstackish donators, flop tptk and profit.
Check/complete vs average-goodish fullstackers, then play small pot poker against them.
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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See I don't know if I like a raise here. He's playing a FR game with FIVE limpers. And if he's playing at 10nl or less there's pretty much no amount that he's gonna bet (short of shoving) that will get called. In my experience (which is limited) a lot of fish at lower stakes LOVE to limp/reraise with their big hands. They think it's "tricky" lol.
Here is what I would do. I would just check, see the flop cheaply. No sense in building a big pot out of position with 4-5 more people left to act. If you flop an Ace a Jack or both (or straight cards) play it fast. Bet out about 2/3-3/4 pot and extract as much value as possible.
This is kind of one of those pain in the ass spots where there really isn't a RIGHT answer. It's kind of in the gray area. There are good arguments for raising PF, but what do you do when you raise it up 9.5xbb like Harley said and then some guy in LP beefs it up to 30x? You have to think about what the other people in the hand are liable to do when you raise. Will they raise you back? Will they all fold? Call?
No sense in throwing money at a pot that you are more than likely going to have to give up on after the flop.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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i think you'd actually be surprised how often a bet like this will get all of those limpers to fold.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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My thoughts to your comments are below.
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
See I don't know if I like a raise here. He's playing a FR game with FIVE limpers. And if he's playing at 10nl or less there's pretty much no amount that he's gonna bet (short of shoving) that will get called. In my experience (which is limited) a lot of fish at lower stakes LOVE to limp/reraise with their big hands. They think it's "tricky" lol.
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QQ-AA, AK and AQ are a big part of this "tricky" range. If you flop either a J or an A you are behind half of this range. This, plus a couple of other factors makes the second part of your plan for this hand extremely hard to play.
Plus if most of the original limpers are full stacked (close to 100BB) then you should be able to get them to fold to a raise here.
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
Here is what I would do. I would just check, see the flop cheaply. No sense in building a big pot out of position with 4-5 more people left to act.
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A couple of things here. You will not be building a big pot then playing OOP against 4-5 people. This is where table dynamics, stack sizes, etc. come into play. In most situations a raise here should limit the field to one or two opponents, making your post flop play much easier to read.
Note: If you are on a "calling station" type of table and think a raise here would get called by a majority of the people then I agree that a raise here is not a good play.
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
If you flop an Ace a Jack or both (or straight cards) play it fast. Bet out about 2/3-3/4 pot and extract as much value as possible.
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Playing a TPTK/TPGK fast when you are OOP and in a multi-way pot is a leak. With that many players there are very few boards that a top pair hand will be a favorite against. If you play these types of hands you will get called/raised/semi-bluffed on quite a few draw heavy boards. It will also be very hard to determine (without putting a bunch of money in the pot) if you are up against a two pair/set type of hand.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
This is kind of one of those pain in the ass spots where there really isn't a RIGHT answer. It's kind of in the gray area. There are good arguments for raising PF, but what do you do when you raise it up 9.5xbb like Harley said and then some guy in LP beefs it up to 30x? You have to think about what the other people in the hand are liable to do when you raise. Will they raise you back? Will they all fold? Call?
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OP's situation is definitely an example of a difficult hand to play in a difficult spot. As for your question above about what I would do if villain in LP raises it up to 30X, that one is easy. I am folding here and moving on to the next hand.
Your comment about what other people in the hand will do reiterates my comment earlier about understanding table dynamics before you make a move here.
My general recommendation for beginners is as follows (GENERAL is the key word there as there are many situations where this general advice would change):
If you are comfortable with your post flop play and reading opponents PLUS if you don't have a read that you are on a "calling station" type of table then raise it up here and play the hand post flop against the one or two villains who call.
If you are uncomfortable playing this type of hand post flop while being out of position then limp and play it VERY carefully post flop with the understanding that you don't have a good hand unless you hit 2p or better (and even 2p may not be a good hand on some boards). If you limp behind this many opponents you MUST be willing to let go of a Top Pair type of hand without investing a ton of money.
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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I totally agree with everything you said GatorJH. I'm just saying that he is playing at 2nl and most ppl here really don't know how to fold a hand once they decide to play it. And yes if we bumped it up and someone reraised obviously we are folding.
I just don't like putting extra money into a pot that I am going to be behind in so often. Like you said, "even if we hit TPGK or TPTK here theres a good chance that we are behind. So why put more money in?
Anyways, I'm not arguing with you I think that both ways are a not bad way to play the hand. I just don't think there is a RIGHT way to play it, and I'm just trying to see a flop cheaply, hope it hits, and minimize my losses on the hand as much as possible if I miss.
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