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straight vs agression

  
 
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jack0316
Old 04-07-2009, 11:50 AM     Post subject: straight vs agression #1 (permalink)  

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jack0316
feeling a bit shellshocked and wondering your thoughts on this, if i could have avoided it? i suppose he just guessed i had a straight?

thanks a lot
jack

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed)

jack0316 (Button) ($5.02)
SB ($6.04)
BB ($5)
UTG ($12.44)
MP ($1.91)

Preflop: jack0316 is Button with Jd, 10s
UTG calls $0.05, 1 fold, jack0316 calls $0.05, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: ($0.17) Qd, 9d, 8h (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.20, jack0316 raises to $0.40, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.20

Turn: ($0.97) 2d (2 players)
UTG checks, jack0316 bets $0.45, UTG calls $0.45

River: ($1.87) 8c (2 players)
UTG bets $8, jack0316 calls $4.12 (All-In)

Total pot: $10.11 | Rake: $0.50
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Lucothefish
Old 04-07-2009, 11:57 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 With a possible flush and a pair on the board, you have to ask yourself what hands he would have stayed in to the river with.

You may want to edit the results out of the topic title, it will skew any answers you get. "straight vs aggression" or "straight vs big raise" would be better. Also, try to include any reads on this guy, your table image, anything like that.

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Parasurama
Old 04-07-2009, 01:24 PM #3 (permalink)  
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When people do this on the river at 5NL it's almost never anything but the nuts/near nuts. Made straights are vulnerable hands when there are flush draws. Although he was probably calling any amount with his set or two pair, you need to actually charge him whatever he's willing to call with what is essentially a drawing hand. Of course, we have to consider his whole range when we bet, so I'm not advocating a huge overbet, but on the flop, raise to at least .60, on the turn (given your flop action) bet at least .65, but probably more. On the river, you're getting 3:2 on a call, are you good here 40% of the time? By calling when the flush and pair hit you're increasing his implied odds when he is calling on earlier streets trying to outdraw you. So on the river, make a crying fold because this guy is probably not aggressive enough to do this with anything else.
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tyrn
Old 04-07-2009, 02:17 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
When people do this on the river at 5NL it's almost never anything but the nuts/near nuts.
This.

Over bets on the river are a lot of people's idea of value. When you get a 4x pot river bet, you need to hit the time button and really time it all the way down before making a move. Usually folding is the right option. On this board, there's a pair and flush, easy lay down. You're not losing that much and it's not worth the 1 time out of 10 when it is a bluff.
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dtamburin
Old 04-07-2009, 03:15 PM #5 (permalink)  

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dtamburin
It's hard to lay down a straight, but in this instance when the board pairs on the river and your villain shoves all in you really need to step back and rethink. He did bet after limping the flop, then called you down, and the board has both a possible flush and a pair on it. What could he have when he shoves? I think I would of laid this down and cried about it.
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jack0316
Old 04-07-2009, 03:25 PM #6 (permalink)  

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jack0316
after a time out and looking back i feel stupid for calling with three diamonds on the board, i just always think when there's an unusually large bet it must be a bluff, because i would not want to scare the opponent away with an overbet, i would rather lure him into paying me more, especially with a full house (he must've known i had a straight or a flush), so why this huge bet?

thanks for the replies
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Lucothefish
Old 04-07-2009, 03:31 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 It's simple - because they can't size their bets properly to get it in by the river OR the river is the card they were waiting for and they are staring at a tiny pot not knowing how to get their stack in.

Beware the huge river bet. BEWARE
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oskar
Old 04-07-2009, 03:36 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 Raise preflop to isolate the limpers. You got position, and a decent hand.
Raise more on the flop ~60-80c
Bet a little more on the turn.
River is an easy fold... you have like the 20th best hand, and villain overshoves.
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Erpel
Old 04-07-2009, 03:39 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Erpel
He must know I had a straight

No

But...

NO!

He does not KNOW you had a straight. He HOPES that you have something good enough to call because he thinks he's unbeatable.

Pre-flop - meh. Noone here likes limping but let's not worry too much about it.

Flop: Raise is too small. Ok, so you don't want to scare him away - instead you'd rather give his drawing hand good odds to outdraw you. A raise to $0.77 is a pot sized raise. With your hand in this situation I wouldn't raise to anything below $0.60. Probably something like $0.66 because odd numbers make people curious.

Turn: Flush completed. Two ways to approach this. In either case you have to realise that your relative hand strength has gone way down and that you are no longer committed to stacking off. If you feel quite strongly that he's a flush chaser who would want to check-raise the turn you can just check behind and call a bet (below 1.5x pot size) on the river, or bet 2/3 PSB on river for value. If you think he might have something that includes the odd single diamond you have to bet out again to price out what is now a flush draw - given the pot size the bet size you want to use here is bigger. Since we're not looking to stack off I think a bet in the range of $0.65 is good. Your bet is too small to really price out draws though given any implied odds.

River: Flush has completed, board has paired - your relative hand strength is down. Villain shoves 2.5x pot. FOLD. You are never good here.

It's not hard to lay down a straight. If everything tells you that you are beat - you're probably beat. Only super strong reads (opponent is an aggro monkey who overbet bluffs rivers more than 50% of the time) should let you make a call here.
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Vinland
Old 04-07-2009, 03:45 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
after a time out and looking back i feel stupid for calling with three diamonds on the board, i just always think when there's an unusually large bet it must be a bluff, because i would not want to scare the opponent away with an overbet, i would rather lure him into paying me more
Well you're right that makes sense, thats why more players are doing this (shoving with monsters). I've seen a lot of players shove where it looks like a bluff but they have the nuts/near nuts...They're doing it for exactly the same reason you just described, most people would expect a small bet to lure more money into the pot.

Other than that, you needed to raise larger on flop if you were worried about the draw (which you should have been given the limped pot).

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macatac100
Old 04-07-2009, 04:31 PM     Post subject: Nuts and Chances #11 (permalink)  

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macatac100
Limping seems to be the way to raise the pot,but the experiance players are doing that also.So make sure you have the nuts to back it up most of the time.everybody does bluff.Gut feelings.Look ahead to see what they could possibly have.It doesn't mean they do.That's where a little luck helps with taking a chance.
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lytstephe
Old 04-08-2009, 05:34 AM #12 (permalink)  

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lytstephe
IMO there is pretty much no way out of it. When you flopped a str8 only to lose to a flush (especially HU), you are losing your stack unless he is passive as shit.

On the contrary think about it there are going to be times where you hit a flush and someone hand you their stack with a str8. So these situations balance themselves out.

As Ed Miller puts it, don't worry about learning how to play monster hands because first, there really aren't that many different ways to play them (somehow get your opponent to shove it all in there, thats about it), and also they don't happen often enough to really affect your earnings. Rather focus on how to play marginal made hands cause most of the money comes from playing them well (or folding them well).

I wouldn't try to analyze hands like this one too much. Reason I said so is because there are so many shoves here possibly made by hands like trips, 2 pairs, sets, etc. He is going to have a flush sometimes and by the way he played it, it does seems somewhat likely but I'd still have called that shove anyday and hand over my stack when he flushed my str8.

just my 2 cents hope it helps.

p.s. bet more on the turn because you have to assume he didn't flush and you need to bet more for value there to squeeze the juice out of the TPTKs, 2pairs and sets.
btw I kinda assumed he flushed... maybe he hit a house? same things to be said tho.
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