|
Robb
|
06-10-2008, 03:48 PM
Post subject: STOP SPEW - a quick list of mistakes I've been making lately
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
|
|
I've been thinking about a post from fnord in this thread:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Food for thought.
All the literature, videos, etc. that Johny $1/$2 fish reads these days says:
Aggressive poker is winning poker.
Bet your hand
Bet air
Bet the flop
Bet the turn too if they just called. Calling is for suckers and inbrates who fuck their cousins
Bet the river because you bet it all the way and can't win a showdown anyway.
Put them to a decision, it's hard to hit a hand in hold'em.
Bet the farm
BET BET BET BET
Bet when checked to
Sometimes mix your bets with raises
BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET
Calling is for sissies and dead money
Betting gives you two ways to win the hand
Fold weak hands except sometimes to raise
When you play a hand, play it fast and BET
BET GOD DAMNIT, 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot. Put it on a button and just mash it a lot.
They also recommend betting sometimes.
Think about who at your table plays like that and how you get value out of them. I think being good at poker is about more than just playing tight and betting a lot.
|
I think this ought to be stickied somewhere - it's great to think about. Because that post sums up pretty much everything I've read and liked about poker, and how I play.
That post came to mind as I was multitabling and multitasking and found myself with 65s on the BTN with it folded to me. I didn't think or look. I just fired my standard opening raise for a blind steal. About the time I clicked, I realized the SB was a short stack with 70/5 stats over nearly 200 hands. DAMMIT!! Of course, he called. Of course, I missed the flop. Of course, I pwn'd myself out of 3.5 BB, with no pot or implied odds to do anything other than check/fold.
Instead of betting all the damn time, and then betting some more, I decided to consider some times when NOT betting (or raising) might make sense. The following advice is not original, but it came to mind:
1. Only try to steal blinds that can be stolen.
2. Only make bets that worse hands will call and/or better hands will fold.
3. Only cbet (with air) into villains who can fold.
In lots of situations, limping and/or calling make a lot of sense. Why not play my sc against the loose-passive SB for a limp that he will raise next-to-never (AFTER checking BB stats)? Why not check/call agro villains? Why not think about how my opponents play, and adjust?
IDK, maybe THAT would more +EV than "BET BET BET BET" 
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
sarbox68
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
|
|
I started with the "bet/raise/fold but never call" idea in my head when I started playing 'cause that's what I'd heard, read, etc.. And two things happened...
1) I won a lot of small pots and lost big ones -- making me a break-even on a good day, losing player on a bad one over the longer term. (Yeah, it worked great on those 2K hand heaters... but always came back around to bite me in the @ss...)
2) I frequently got priced out of playing weaker made hands (TPGK, second pair, TPTK vs. 3rd to the flush hitting the board, etc.) to SD 'cause the pot got so d@mn bloated that I just couldn't donk off most of my stack to what was very possibly a busted draw or bluff.
Aggression is good. Pot control is good. And combining the right balance of those based on villains style is a must.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
The point of the post is that at around the $100NL level and higher inducing bluffs out of TAggs becomes a pretty key weapon against players who are pretty picky about calling ranges, but are developing a feel for attacking weakness. Monkey checked to, monkey bet.
The other big application is ignoring flop c-bets and such from some players because they do nothing to define their hands.
|
|
|
|
Robb
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
The point of the post is that at around the $100NL level and higher inducing bluffs out of TAggs becomes a pretty key weapon against players who are pretty picky about calling ranges, but are developing a feel for attacking weakness. Monkey checked to, monkey bet.
The other big application is ignoring flop c-bets and such from some players because they do nothing to define their hands.
|
The point I got out of it was to NOT be the monkey 
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
The reason this approach is preached is because it destroys weak players.
If they fold it's genius
If they call it's spew
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Robb
That post came to mind as I was multitabling and multitasking and found myself with 65s on the BTN with it folded to me. I didn't think or look. I just fired my standard opening raise for a blind steal. About the time I clicked, I realized the SB was a short stack with 70/5 stats over nearly 200 hands. DAMMIT!! Of course, he called. Of course, I missed the flop. Of course, I pwn'd myself out of 3.5 BB, with no pot or implied odds to do anything other than check/fold.
Instead of betting all the damn time, and then betting some more, I decided to consider some times when NOT betting (or raising) might make sense. The following advice is not original, but it came to mind:
1. Only try to steal blinds that can be stolen.
2. Only make bets that worse hands will call and/or better hands will fold.
3. Only cbet (with air) into villains who can fold.
|
IMO blind stealing in cash games is an overrated strategy that somehow carried over from tournament play. Yeah, if the blinds are completely passive nits, then by all means, steal with any 2 cards when folded to. But if not, just be smart.
#3 is one of the most overlooked skill in poker, even for some pros. And yes, I admit, I am guilty of it from time to time too.
|
|
|
|
MuddyWicket
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK, Brighton
Posts: 368
|
|
I was too drunk the other day (and tired to play) so I watched a player from this forum who plays nosebleeds + some and what struck me was there was so little calling post flop, a lot of raising pre and an aweful lot of checking down postflop. (small sample of course)
My crappy stakes they just can't resist betting all the time, including myself. Its wierd how I've had to learn to cbet and now I'm having to almost unlearn the compulsion to do it.
|
|
|
|
XTR1000
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
|
|
Great idea to bring this up Robb, Fnord´s post hasn´t been discussed enough yet. Pure gold.
Its mostly not about stealing the blinds right there, but about playing a raised pot with initiative in position. We don´t loosen up in LP, because we want to steal $0.75 or $3 or whatever stakes you play, but because the later our seat, the more likely will we have position.
I´m not saying Robb is wrong, of course its never great to bluff the unbluffable, but vs many villians raising 65s on the button isn´t a pure bluff, it´s more sort of a semi-bluff.
Regarding Fnord´s post:
For me it had an eye-opening effect. I am one of the guys that will mash the bet button once you check to me, I am the guy that can´t give up on a blank river and I am the guy that will bleed a ton of chips to you, once you start checkraising my cbets. I´d almost always be creative and figure out a range for you that justifies thin value bets, when I´m actually toast. I frequently turn hands with SD value into bluffs. I frequently destroy the value I have preflop by 3betting your possible blind steal.
I am not yet at the point to start exploiting these weakness-attacking guys, first I must stop being one of those exloitables.
And everyone who doesnt believe me, clicky the link in the OP.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
|
yo
|
|
bjsaust
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
|
|
Quote:
|
About the time I clicked, I realized the SB was a short stack with 70/5 stats over nearly 200 hands.
|
Yeah, I worked this out pretty early, probably from playing so many STTs and having this situation a lot. I rarely steal with low cards from short stacks on my left.
|
|
Just playing to improve.
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
