www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

Steps to putting someone on a range of hands

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

geoffm33

05-17-2006, 01:31 PM Post subject: Steps to putting someone on a range of hands

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Boston

Posts: 166

I'm curious what everyones steps are to putting someone on a range of hands. I'm sure it comes naturally now to a lot of you, but for an average newb I'm having difficulty.

It's a huge leak in my game, I am basically flying blind most of the time. I've been doing a great job at maximizing my wins, but minimizing my losses has been a struggle. When I lose a pot, I lose it in a big way.

I am going to cut down to two tables to make it easier for me to follow the betting progressions, I'm sure that will help. But what steps do you progress through to put someone on a range?

Thanks

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

yorib

05-17-2006, 02:20 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Oak Park, IL

Posts: 281

I consider myself an "average newb" as well, but this is what I do: I pay close attention when someone open raises/reraises preflop and try and see what they have (after showdown). Then I make a note of it (on the computer) so the next time that person does something similar I have an idea of what they are likely to be holding. This works particularly well when they've shown down QQ+/AK or something completely different (like reraising with AJo).

At low levels, some people will call/raise with anything so it's almost impossible to make vague generalities concerning position and preflop betting.

jackvance

05-17-2006, 02:55 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

I consider myself a pro and it comes natural to me, I know what my opponents have at all times.

Seriously though, I think it might help you if you go to the HH section and plough through a bunch of those and do the detailed analysis like "if he had AK, AQ, he would play this like this, if XX then like that, if YY then I would expect something else" etc. There you can take the time to contemplate about it, which you don't have in real games.

Maybe noobish, but I don't think I do much more than "if he plays little hands, it's probably a tight range of top hands, if he plays loose, he can have anything". I look more at the betting pattern to tell me how hard (if at all) he hit the flop - so in a way let THEM tell me if they have a good hand. Dunno if that makes sense.

Another important thing is the continuation-thing. If you put someone on a bunch of hands on the flop, and then he starts "repping" a hand on the turn that wasn't there, something is probably up. Like if the flop is K72 and you know he would bet if he had the K but he checks, and then the turn is another K and he bets.. it's probably a steal b/c he won't have the K. Stuff like that.

dzeanah

05-17-2006, 03:25 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: Statesboro, GA

Posts: 95

Another noob here (only been playing for $ since Friday, though play money about 6 months)...

I look at

How many hands have they been playing?
What have they shown down with -- when it's something I'd consider crap, did he raise (or reraise) with it?
Does he like to c-bet, or will he check on the flop if it misses?
Does he vary the PFR based on the strength of his hand (really easy to put some folks on +/- JJ with this one -- standard play might be to limp, raise for AK might be 3BB, but this is 5BB)
Does he play a larger % of hands from the blinds, and does he appear to be playing position more than his cards?
Does he have position on this hand?
Can he resist firing at pots when other players look weak?
How much does he bet at pots? Does 1/3 pot mean it's a probe bet, or that he's got a monster? Does he bet enough to remove drawing odds?
How much does he value TPTK?
What's his stack look like -- if he's way down in a tourney is this a blind steal attempt or does he have the goods?
What're the odds I had a run of cards that's unbelievable lately and he thinks I'm a maniac that needs to be reraised out of a few hands?

Now, I generally play SnGs (though I'm working on my cash game) but most people have patterns.

In general (and I only play low stakes, and am far from Mr-Guru-Poker-Boddhisatva here):

If he's a tight player who limped into the pot and he reraises me and I don't see anything scary on the board, I'll lay down AA. I've been stung too many times with sets to think otherwise, and tight players deserve respect. Hell, I'll call a 4BB raise with 22, because if it hits we just might be playing for his stack...
If he's playing from position (or if he's one of those that likes to steal from the blinds with "first in vigorish" and all that) and I've got a piece of the flop I'll reraise him 3-4x his bet to see if he's serious or not. Past observations should tell whether he'll lay it down at this point. If I got the nuts, I'll just call (gotta love a pair hitting quads on the flop). Note that I'm usually a fairly tight player so even if I'm wrong the first time or two I'd expect a fold from a solid player unless he's got the nuts.
I'll compare the texture of the flop with the range of cards he likes to play, and see what his bet seems to mean in context. If he raises 4BB preflop, he always raises AK, the flop comes AKx, and he bets 1/3 of the pot I'm out (unless I made a set on the x card). A flop like QJx can require a much better feel for his play -- is he a guy that likes to play QJ into the face of a raise, or does he fold it?

This mostly works. Occasionally I'll hit QQ vs KK (like this morning) still, but I don't claim to be a pro. I'm happy to be playing while keeping my bankroll on even keel...

Now, I'll also say that if you're limping into a lot of pots with a lot of other players, then it's gonna be tough to get a good read. Solid reads are easier on good players, and especially when you raise enough to get them to fold their crap hands. If you're in a hand with an asshat who likes to call 10BB raises with 83o and you have paired trash on the board, what do you do?

crushednuts

05-17-2006, 03:39 PM

#5 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 106

I like to look at betting patterns to decide what type of hand my opponent has after the flop. You need to be observant and look to see if opponents use the Check/raise or if when they check it is an open invitation for you to take the pot. Also, be very careful of the min raise. It is the most common and reliable tell in online poker at the lower levels. The min raise is too small to protect a hand and too small to drive someone from the pot so it is obviously someone who wants to get more money in w/o scaring you away. BEWARE THE MIN RAISE!!! Also, get good at analyzing the texture of the board. Are there any draws? Would the villian have entered the pot w/ these hands? Could the Villian have TPTK? would he bet middle pair? Could he possibly have two pair etc. etc. Analyzing the board is extremely important in Texas Hold 'em and you need to be come proficient at it quickly. As for preflop you must figure out how many hands the villian is playing and that will give you an idea of whether he is Tight or loose. Adjust your play accordingly... I try not to narrow him down to just one hand as this is nearly impossible so just get a vague idea of possible hands and play your hand against the MOST LIKELY hand he is holding according to his preflop and post flop play and how these cards would fit with the board. The info is out there you just have to piece it together...

Sometimes the nuts just get crushed

-crush3dnuts

crush3dnuts@yahoo.com

ilikeaces86

05-17-2006, 03:41 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 2,141

Say to yourself "Do I want to own them today?" Then fold.

geoffm33

05-17-2006, 06:39 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Boston

Posts: 166

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I took up Biondino on his "help a newb" session in chat today and he added a few thoughts as well (thanks biondino):

Not completely regarding putting an opp on a hand, but they are all related; Summarized as such:

(Mostly applicable at the micro-limits)

* When someone calls your big raise, more often than not it means something, proceed with caution

* When someone re-raises you, it means your are beat more often than not. Need the nuts to continue

* Never slowplay sets, TPTK or two pair on flush draw boards

* Make sure you aren't giving the opp the odds to draw to a better hand

* 1 or 2 table and take notes on what people's bets mean, what do they show down, did they open-limp, open-raise, how big was the bet. This will start to put them on a range. Pokertracker will help with this analysis.

Thoughts?

givememyleg

05-17-2006, 07:15 PM

#8 (permalink)

WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN

Posts: 5,041

Ranges have a lot to do with

1 - How the player has been playing
2 - The coordination of the board

The laggier, the harder to put a range. Pay close attention to showdown hands. This is where you gain a lot of information. If you can't remember exactly how the hand went, look up the HH. You may notice things like

1 - Oh he raised 5x bb preflop instead of 3x and he had a large pocket pair.
2 - He had a draw and check raised, I remember him doing that earlier
3 - He slow played here with a big hand

etc etc.. Reads really come down to hands like, when you have AQ and are raised on a A 3 6 board. There are players I will be playing with and I know I have the best hand. Sometimes when I am in the pot with villian and am getting raised/called I slow down because of how they have playing.

Start with 1 table. Really concentrate. When reads come, you can try mutlitabling... but I highly advise against multitabling without being able to get decent reads on people. You're not going to be able to read everyone, but it helps.

Get your own badge! Click profile at the top and FTR Badge from the left nav.

"The Dragon in My Garage" by Carl Sagan
I say onto you, I've felt the dragon! I felt the touch of his tail, the breath of his fire, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the dragon exists!

geoffm33

05-17-2006, 10:35 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Boston

Posts: 166

I'm playing a single table right now, up a few bucks, feel pretty good about reading the opp. Nailed one right on the head a few times, I was out of the hand, so it didn't realy help, but I made a note of it.

Cool thing I found with PokerTracker (if this is well known, then just kick me in the nuts.)

Filter for todays date, go to the sessions tab and double click the current table in the session detail pane. This will filter for that particular table on all tabs.

I then go to the Game Notes tab and follow through the recently finished games to see the winning/mucked hands. It shows them inline with the preflop bet/raise, flop, turn and river bets/raises.

Really easy to follow alongside the game to see what they were betting with and on what street.

biondino

05-18-2006, 12:24 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

Say to yourself "Do I want to own them today?" Then fold.

It's the way high stakes playes make the time to post on the beginner's forum that really makes FTR special

geoffm33

05-18-2006, 12:39 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Boston

Posts: 166

Just as a follow up, I felt pretty good about my session last night. Ended the night down but I was stacked with boat over boat (his boat came on the river). Probably could have folder to his river re-raise but I was pretty committed already.

So, I took my time and was pretty methodical. Took notes on all relevant plays and used them to my advantage. I was getting cold cards last night so that didn't help the situation, but overall I felt I did well.

Thanks all, and biondino for taking the time to help me out on chat.

Lukie

05-18-2006, 04:55 PM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: back with a vengeance

Posts: 3,307

Quote:

* When someone re-raises you, it means your are beat more often than not. Need the nuts to continue

I really need to start re-raising more...

geoffm33

05-18-2006, 05:01 PM

#13 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Boston

Posts: 166

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

* When someone re-raises you, it means your are beat more often than not. Need the nuts to continue

I really need to start re-raising more...

biondino was referring specifically to the micro-limits. Unless you can put them on being a maniac, or unless you have the nuts, it may not be worth your stack.

jackvance

05-18-2006, 05:21 PM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

* When someone re-raises you, it means your are beat more often than not. Need the nuts to continue

I really need to start re-raising more...

If I am at a table where I notice people only reraise the (near-)nuts, I start doing it with air on occassion. Works great. Even if you get caught, it might have a little side benefit of getting paid later with a "real" reraise.

I already made it a habit of reraising with draws (flush+pair and those) if my opp is a nit, ie if I sense I have a lot of fold equity.

Pelion

05-20-2006, 12:46 AM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

Quote:

Originally Posted by geoffm33

* When someone re-raises you, it means your are beat more often than not. Need the nuts to continue

I wouldnt go that far....reads are good here.

One thing thats really helped me here is specifically asking if the hand worse than mine would make a raise.

e.g.

:Ah: :Kd:

Flop

:Kc:

If you know this guy is reasonably passive then do you really think he is raising with KQ here?

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:35 AM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

Beginners Circle

Steps to putting someone on a range of hands

Play for FREE and practice your game at...