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pokerroomace
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01-06-2007, 11:52 PM
Post subject: stealing limpers blinds preflop
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 783
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general situation:
FR - you're on the button with a hand like JTs. 2 players have limped in. the table is an average table. not superloose.
what do you think about making a 6xbb bet here in an attempt to pick up the blinds. if you do get 1 or 2 callers you are in good position and could take down the pot on the flop with a cbet or you could hit the flop and win the hand.
i was watching high stakes poker and barry greenstein made a similar play and took the pot down before the flop. i think there were 3 limpers. he then made a similar play the next hand and took down that pot too. in good position for both hands.
they called the barry greenstein play.
i have made this play before tho before seeing this. but i think i might do it a bit too much (even though there aren't that many opportunities to do it).
i will do it with quite a wide range of hands (eg QJ, KJ, KT, QT, 98, etc. - those sorts of hands)
is it profitable? what do you think?
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Standard. Position = cash money.
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flyingPenguin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 193
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This is fairly standard. JTs is definitely part of my raising range here. You have 4 players who may call your raise - the two limpers and the two blinds. Whether to raise with a weak holding depends mostly on their calling range. If they are very loose tighten your raising range. If they are weak/tight raise with any two.
If I've raise preflop with any two because I rate my opponents as weak, I'll almost always be c-betting the flop if I get one caller. If that's called and I haven't hit big I will then completely shut down, as they've probably got a reasonable hand.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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What is a good range of hands for this play? Or do you do it with almost anything?
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
What is a good range of hands for this play? Or do you do it with almost anything?
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Basically everything I would normally open with.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Ah, so same hand range bit bigger raise to take the pot.
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flyingPenguin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 193
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
Ah, so same hand range bit bigger raise to take the pot.
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I would think this is a leak, because if you're only raising bigger when you want to take it preflop an observant opponent will recognise it, and you'll start finding yourself being check/raised on the flop. Keep your standard bet. You are betting because you think they'll fold most of the time, and if they don't you are expecting they'll fold to a c-bet. If you think they won't fold to your standard bet and you don't have a clear idea of what to do if they call, don't try it.
The size of your raise is opponent dependent only. If your opponents never fold to your raise, it isn't big enough.
Also, your button range should be greater than from any other positions anyway.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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as long as your at least 60-70bb deep with all the limpers, if you play good post flop its profitable to raise any reasonable hand (Axs K9s+, A8o+ KTo+, suited connectors, and all pairs are in my range to raise if these conditions are fulfilled).
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by flyingPenguin
I would think this is a leak, because if you're only raising bigger when you want to take it preflop an observant opponent will recognise it, and you'll start finding yourself being check/raised on the flop. Keep your standard bet. You are betting because you think they'll fold most of the time, and if they don't you are expecting they'll fold to a c-bet. If you think they won't fold to your standard bet and you don't have a clear idea of what to do if they call, don't try it.
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This isn't a leak, it's standard. Raise more because there were limpers, as opposed to open raising, which is true. Because more money is in the pot, you need a bigger raise to deny pot odds. It's more ideal to fluctuate somewhat, but there is nothing wrong with having a standard. You are not just betting to "make" them fold, you're also betting for value because you probably have the better hand, and you have position.
Quote:
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The size of your raise is opponent dependent only. If your opponents never fold to your raise, it isn't big enough.
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Wow. The size of your raise should be based on way more than the opponent. Your cards, position, image, effective stack size, etc should also affect the decision.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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flyingPenguin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 193
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G
Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by flyingPenguin
I would think this is a leak, because if you're only raising bigger when you want to take it preflop an observant opponent will recognise it, and you'll start finding yourself being check/raised on the flop. Keep your standard bet. You are betting because you think they'll fold most of the time, and if they don't you are expecting they'll fold to a c-bet. If you think they won't fold to your standard bet and you don't have a clear idea of what to do if they call, don't try it.
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This isn't a leak, it's standard. Raise more because there were limpers, as opposed to open raising, which is true. Because more money is in the pot, you need a bigger raise to deny pot odds. It's more ideal to fluctuate somewhat, but there is nothing wrong with having a standard. You are not just betting to "make" them fold, you're also betting for value because you probably have the better hand, and you have position. |
Sorry I should have clarified. I was referring to a raise with 2 limpers from the button. It's a good idea to increase your raise for every limper. I also agree that you shouldn't be betting just to make them fold, but you should increase your raising range as their calling range decreases. This means that sometimes I'm raising with crap, and if I get a call I'm sure I have the worse hand. I still have a plan for what to do if I get a call though, and it definitely includes using my position.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by flyingPenguin
The size of your raise is opponent dependent only. If your opponents never fold to your raise, it isn't big enough.
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Wow. The size of your raise should be based on way more than the opponent. Your cards, position, image, effective stack size, etc should also affect the decision. |
Again I was talking situation specific. Position can be relevant to raise size, although I don't think many people use it. Number of callers is always a factor. I can see how effective stacks could be relevant, although it usually only influences my raising range, not the size of the raise. But I completely disagree about cards. They should never effect the size of the raise, only whether or not you are going to raise.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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^^ I think your absolute "only" threw me off. Opponents pre/post-flop tendencies should easily be the biggest factor.
I think there is a confusion about the "stealing" part. OP is talking about raising a playable hand with the added bonus of potentially of stealing the limpers blinds. I "never" raise limpers with complete garbage and I've been running 25%pfr (only moderately profitably, but that's a different topic) since the new year. So my cards affect the size of my raise by a bb or 2 because some hands play better post-flop, sometimes I want/don't mind a call. At 50NL me raising in this situation is almost always for value/isolation.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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hlester25
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 78
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Personally, I would make this sort of play (as long as my image was suitable) with almost any two cards. There are a couple of reasons why...
1. At an average table, you'd pick up the pot 2 out of 3 times with the right image. A win is a win is a win.
2. Say you do get called. Since you have position you have a good chance to c-bet and win here as well.
3. We may hit the flop (2 pair, 4-flush, open ender). Almost every time the player will check to you. I like to check here, but that is another conversation. Either way, hitting the flop in this situation is a dream scenario.
4. Our "worst case" scenario isn't all that bad. We miss the flop, c-bet and get raised or called. If we get raised, we can fold easily. If we get called we can decide not to lose another penny and check/fold out. This is not that bad as you lose a quarter of your stack MAX. Both cases can add some wreckless/loose qualities to your image, and as Caro says, a wreckless image is the most profitable. Sooner or later you will wake up with aces on the button and that loose play you made earlier will really pay off.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Standard. Reads help a lot because against loose/passive callers we're just building a really big pot which is something we probably want to reserve for hands with high card strength against that crowd.
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pokerroomace
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 783
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ok. thanks for the replies. everybody is on a similar line of thinking.
i was worried i was raising a bit too much from position, but i think i'm fine.
sometimes i do raise in late position with hands like 65o, T8o, etc.
sometimes i even raise hands like 93o in late position (but quite rarely).
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uscheese
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 558
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I hate when I have a hand that I'm planning on doing this with and like the guy before me raises 8 times or something...sometimes I think it's a blessing in disguise though when this happens
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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be careful you don't spew lots with bad cbetting spots. also, this situation will come up all the time. it's a very common spot so if you screw things up very much post-flop, things could get expensive.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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