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PokerFreak
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03-13-2006, 02:43 AM
Post subject: Starting Hands - Please Critique
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10
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I've been reading this forum for a while. Great work!
I've been a winning player since I started playing with my first $150 in September, thanks to this forum along with a few others, and some books. Now I play the $100 NL tables at Bodog and the $50 NL and $25 NL tables at a few other sites with a good bankroll after lots of cash outs.
I've been refining my starting hand selection and how I play them for a while, but I am still working on it and could use some advice. I've still got plenty of leaks.
Premium hands: Raise from any position. Fold AQ to a raise or reraise.
Pocket Pairs (88 or lower): Limp from early or middle. Limp or raise from late (depending on the game and how I feel). Call all raises that meet the 10% requirement.
Trouble hands (AJo, ATo, KQo, KJo, KTo, QJo, QTo, JTo): Fold from early position. Limp or fold from middle. Raise or limp from late (never raise with QT or JTo ). Occasionally limp from early or middle with JTo and QJo, looking out for the straight or a small pot pair. Never call a raise with any of these.
Suited trouble hands: Limp from early or middle. Raise from late with the same ones as I'd raise with unsuited. Never call a significant raise.
Suited aces (A9 and below): Limp from any position. Generally fold to a significant raise. Occasionally call a raise from late position.
Suited connectors (45s - JTs). Limp from early or middle position. Raise about 60% of the time from late (usually when there are only one or two limpers ahead of me. I'll generally call a smallish raise with these (no more than 5 big blinds or so) especially with position.
Suited one gap connectors (35s - 9Js): Limp from any position. Occasionally raise from late. Generally fold to raises unless they are small and/or there are several other callers.
These are the only hands I'll play except from the little blind where I'll play any ace and most hands that might make a straight or a flush.
On the flop, I bet top pair good kicker and better along with all strong draws (8 outs or more) from any position, unless I've called a raise pre-flop, in which case I'll check to the raiser with a draw, and call bets based on pot odds/implied odds.
I usually c-bet missed flops when I raised preflop, and I think I can steal (heads up or against two checkers from late position). Beyond this is where post flop play gets complex.
I feel like with all the limping and calling I do with the connecting cards, I leave a lot of money on the table folding to raises and to missed flops, but I see real value in the occasional hidden hands that can pay off big, and I’m trying to figure out a way to balance this.
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ignored
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 76
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I have the problem calling to many raises preflop with suited connectors. Its not that often you flop it big. I will try to almost never call a raise with my SC unless there are at least a 4way pot.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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So from early position you are limping the small pairs, suited trouble hands (aka easily dominated broadways), suited aces, suited connectors, and suited 1-gappers?
I badly think you need to respect position more, and I think your preflop play is far too loose and passive in general IMO.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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my starting hand selection depends more upon the type of player[s] im playing against and the table.
Hence ill play any two in a raised pot for example because the preflop raiser is
a. horrible
b. a tight-ass
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strawman
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03-13-2006, 05:56 PM
Post subject: Re: Starting Hands - Please Critique
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#5 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 207
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PokerFreak
Trouble hands (AJo, ATo, KQo, KJo, KTo, QJo, QTo, JTo): Fold from early position. Limp or fold from middle. Raise or limp from late (never raise with QT or JTo ). Occasionally limp from early or middle with JTo and QJo, looking out for the straight or a small pot pair. Never call a raise with any of these.
...
Suited one gap connectors (35s - 9Js): Limp from any position. Occasionally raise from late. Generally fold to raises unless they are small and/or there are several other callers.
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I would question why you value 35s so much more highly than JTo? You will limp from any position and raise with 35s as well, but you will never raise with JTo and generally fold from early or middle position. I guess if you are getting better results in the way you play 35s that's fine, but as troubling as JTo can be, it is a bit better none-the-less.
You seem to be favoring some inferior hands over hands that while troubleseome are much better. So if the better hands are troublesome, what does that indicate about some of the hands you are willing to play?
Additionally I'd be cautious about being so absolute about starting hands. If you always fold a paticular hand you may be losing value just as if you are willing to always play a paticular hand.
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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I don't like playing A6s through A9s because your kicker is crap. If you play these, don't make the mistake of thinking your A is goot. You need a FD or two pair to continue against aggression. I prefer A-little suited and AT and above suited because of the potential straight draws to go with the flush draws. If you are capable of laydowns, and you can see the flop for a limp against a bunch of players, then okay, but proceed with extreme caution....Just my .02.....
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Renton
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03-13-2006, 06:32 PM
Post subject: Re: Starting Hands - Please Critique
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#7 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by strawman
I would question why you value 35s so much more highly than JTo?
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35s is almost never dominated.
If you hit trips 3s or 5s, you can be pretty sure that no one has you outkicked.
In a tournament all in situation, you are only dominated by 55+. You're cards are usually live, so you're typically 35% to win.
If you hit a straight, you are taking someones stack cuz people don't put you on it. Conversely if you hit a straight with JT0 its kinda obvious. Every cognizant player sees all the JT possibilities with every flop since its such a popular drawing hand.
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strawman
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03-13-2006, 07:16 PM
Post subject: Re: Starting Hands - Please Critique
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#8 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 207
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by strawman
I would question why you value 35s so much more highly than JTo?
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35s is almost never dominated.
If you hit trips 3s or 5s, you can be pretty sure that no one has you outkicked.
In a tournament all in situation, you are only dominated by 55+. You're cards are usually live, so you're typically 35% to win.
If you hit a straight, you are taking someones stack cuz people don't put you on it. Conversely if you hit a straight with JT0 its kinda obvious. Every cognizant player sees all the JT possibilities with every flop since its such a popular drawing hand. |
So in your opinion 35s is better than JTo?
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Renton
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03-13-2006, 07:16 PM
Post subject: Re: Starting Hands - Please Critique
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#9 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by strawman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by strawman
I would question why you value 35s so much more highly than JTo?
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35s is almost never dominated.
If you hit trips 3s or 5s, you can be pretty sure that no one has you outkicked.
In a tournament all in situation, you are only dominated by 55+. You're cards are usually live, so you're typically 35% to win.
If you hit a straight, you are taking someones stack cuz people don't put you on it. Conversely if you hit a straight with JT0 its kinda obvious. Every cognizant player sees all the JT possibilities with every flop since its such a popular drawing hand. |
So in your opinion 35s is better than JTo? |
yep except maybe in a heads up situation.
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PokerFreak
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10
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Thanks for all the advice.
I play the SCs and the one gap SCs because the chances of catching a draw or a two pair or better on the flop are 27% for the zero gap and 22.8% for the one gap (http://www.texasholdempoker-stats.com/thp_preflop.html).
This makes for pretty good implied odds (especially when a straight hits my 35s).
I find these hands and the trouble hands easier to play from early position than the premium hands. When my flop bet from early position with a pair of Kings and a J kicker (suited, of course), is raised it's an easy fold. Not so with AK. Betting AK hard from early sometimes seems to be more trouble than it's worth. There's little worse than when my 10bb flop bet gets raised, whether or not I hit the flop.
With the connectors, if I hit a draw or a 2 pair or better, from early position, I bet, and if I don't, I fold after just paying the blinds. But I'm not sure if I'm getting + value out of hands like 35s from early. For example, I don't put much value in the flush draw with 35s if the pot is multiway.
I'm also considering dropping the little Ace suited hands because the chance of hitting a flush draw or a 2 pair or better is only 15.3%, and there's nothing like a 3 flushed board to shut down the betting, unless of course if there is a weaker flush to pay you off.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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In NLHE, quite often you're betting your position + money. Hence, limping out of position likely to hit a draw is a great way to lose money at some tables.
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sunfunbunch
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 176
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Great post Fnord.
I'm slowly realizing that this is very true =)
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PokerFreak
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10
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I dropped the drawing hands from early and increased my raising range from late. I'm really getting a feel for playing position that I didn't have before. It's too early to tell, but so far this seems to have a significantly positive EV. Thanks for all the advice.
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STIdrivr
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern california
Posts: 580
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the only problem with hands like 35s and 45s is that if you hit a straight there are going to be a bunch of low cards out there, so it will be hard to get paid off unless they have a set or over pair. and of course if you hit a flush it will be a very shitty one.You will mostly only get paid off in other situations if you get a flop like 5 4 A or 4 4 A
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salsa4ever
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,073
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every time you limp and fold from EP, a child dies
35s is better than QJ for calling a raise. It's not better for raising.
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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