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Starting Hands...

  
 
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acgibson
Old 05-19-2009, 05:25 AM     Post subject: Starting Hands... #1 (permalink)  
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ive been trying to work on my starting hand strategy and and playing in position and i came across this formula bill chen used.. my question is what do you think? ive used it for a little while and it seems to help alot but i think its a little loose..i dont know...???

The formula below was developed by Bill Chen, winner of 2 WSOP bracelets (http://www.billchenpoker.com). He basically developed a mathematical formula to determine if a hand is playable based on giving the cards certain values. For the most part, the formula works extremely well and we actually use it in our Starting Hand Quiz.

Determine your highest card and score as follows: (only use your lower card for gap and suited analysis)

Ace = 10 points
King = 8 points
Queen = 7 points
Jack = 6 points
10 through 2 = half of face value (i.e. 10 = 5, 9 = 4.5)
Pairs, multiply score by 2 (i.e. KK = 16), minimum score for a pair is 5 (so pairs of 2 through 4 get a 5 score)
Suited cards, add two points to highest card score
Connectors add 1 point (i.e. KQ)
One gap, subtract 1 point (i.e. T8)
Two gap, subtract 2 points (i.e. AJ)
Three gap, subtract 4 points (i.e. J7)
Four or more gap, subtract 5 points (i.e. A4)
Sample scores
AA = 20 points
98s = 7.5 points
K9s = 6 points

The information below is not strictly from the Chen formula as he believed the system only told you what to play, not when to come in for a raise. There are too many factors in determining when to raise, call or fold. The scores below can be used as a general rule of thumb.

Early Position
Raise = Score is 9 or higher
Call = Score is 8 or higher
Fold = Score is lower than 8
Middle Position
Raise = Score is 9 or higher
Call = Score is 7 or higher
Fold = Score is lower than 7
Late Position
Raise = Score is 9 or higher
Call = Score is 6 or higher
Fold = Score is lower than 6
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Stacks
Old 05-19-2009, 05:33 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 It's stupid.
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:34 AM #3 (permalink)  
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shit sucks
a better formula is A=15, K=14, etc. because T =10, 9=9
double your highest card, add the lower card, add 22 for pair, add 2 for suited

this gives you the formula for the best all-in preflop hands and is useful for push/fold situations in tournaments

in cash games you shouldn't use "formulas" at all, if you have problems preflop use a starting hands chart
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oskar
Old 05-19-2009, 05:46 AM #4 (permalink)  
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oskar has a spectacular aura aboutoskar has a spectacular aura aboutoskar has a spectacular aura about
 It distracts you from learning how a certain hand interacts with someones range... also KJ is not a recommended open from EP...
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Ragnar4
Old 05-19-2009, 05:18 PM #5 (permalink)  
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no. no no no
nonononono!

No cookie for you

Remember in cash games, we play hands with huge implied odds down the road for cheaply from late position that wouldn't fit in your list for a raise. A2s is worth a raise from CO in certain games, while it's not even worth calling in others.

More importantly, you do realize that KTo in your system is a raise from UTG right? Horrible pokar right there.

Why would you follow a system for cards when you have your opponents hud up that lets you KNOW what hands will be profitable and what hands wont be profitable in the long run?
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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linaker
Old 05-19-2009, 06:30 PM #6 (permalink)  
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A mathematical formula can't work, as it leads to anomalies like calling UTG with AJo, but raising KJs. Plenty of books (and probably websites) give lists of starting hands by position which is better.

Best of all is to get the experience and knowledge so you know why in a full ring game it is not a good idea to limp UTG with 87s, but you cant wait to play that hand from the BTN with 4 or 5 limpers in front.
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TAGurit
Old 05-19-2009, 07:58 PM #7 (permalink)  

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formulas like this are way to complicated for me to remember. i know to (usually) play tighter in EP and my range opens up as i get in later position. i used to use a chart in the beginning but i know now what is the min hand i need in what position. this alters of course depending on the table and the villain but i'd never use a formula like this. doesn't work.
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LawDude
Old 05-19-2009, 10:46 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I suspect a mathematical formula COULD work, but it would have to be so complicated that it wouldn't be any more useful for beginners than learning a chart.

I say the same thing every time the starting hands discussion pops up. And that is that ANY of the common starting hand charts that you see in poker books or websites is probably fine. Because, frankly, while it is important to play a relatively tight range of starting hands and to play them aggressively, the more important elements of pre-flop play are what other people are doing before you act and what your action will likely cause people to do after you act. In other words, the chart is just a baseline, and understanding whether the particular situation you are in justifies a DEVIATION from the chart is crucial to good pre-flop play.

So beginners should go ahead and learn a chart. But it is more important that they start watching tables and watching players and understanding their calling, raising, and folding ranges from various positions. Because the chart is just the starting point.
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sarbox68
Old 05-19-2009, 11:08 PM #9 (permalink)  
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This sh1t reminds me of someone learning to drive by reading instructions on how to make a sundial out of they steering wheel and a floor mat.

A whole lot of thinking for pretty much no helping...

Get a hand chart and then spend all your thinking time on why what's on the chart is on there and why and when it'll work better or worse. Then you'll have some knowledge that'll not only help you start laying now, but far more importantly, adjust your play to get better in the future.
 
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